On Lesbian Couples

[showler]

There's also the fact that murdering the hero/ines family/loved ones is a cheap and easy way to establish the hero/ines motivations.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

WiF wasn't just about Moore, and specifically called out DC for using a woman in a fridge for triggering what has become multiple crossover events that are all the consequences of one emotionally stunted guy. Probably better example is Act 1 of almost every James Bond story:

1: Bond gets secret.
2: Bond meets girl.
3: Bond fucks girl.
4: Girl gets killed under orders from Big Bad.

Back in comics, Wolverine is probably the worst, as each new peek into his history seems to involve a new female character who either gets murdered or coerced into becoming a bad guy through a process of horrific mutilation, giving Logan a reason to paint the walls with blood. Moore, for all of the psychosexual weirdness(*) you find in his books, is fairly well regarded on that front and he and everyone else has moved on from Killing Joke, which was 23 years ago. Killing Joke got all of three words of mention in the original list. "Batgirl I (paralyzed)."

I'm not certain that Liz (Swamp Thing) and Silk Spectre (Watchmen) qualify either. Liz was a co-protagonist for much of Moore's Swamp Thing run, and the Spectre was one of multiple capes that Moore implies were killed as part of a violent red-scare purge. For that matter, Simone herself broke both of Black Canary's legs and chained her to a bed. The issue is less about violence against female capes and more about how that violence is used in the story.

(*) Personally, I find V for Vendetta to be much more creepy than either Killing Joke or the Swamp Thing run. But I think it's supposed to be horrific.

[Ozaline]

This makes me tend to read these scenes charitably, as a response to real-world brutality. There are also plenty of shows of strength and force from the women in Moore's works.

As in other areas, the unfortunate tendency to follow Moore's surface traits a little too closely has led to some bad results (see: Women in Refrigerators). But I don't think it's fair to paint him with that brush.

There's also the way rape is treated rather flippantly in the first League of Extraordinary Gentlemen; the invisible man sets up camp in an all girl boarding school especially so he can rape young teen girls with no repercussions, and it's almost treated as comedy.

There's Lost Girls, which I doesn’t fit my definition of benign porn one bit. I was interested in that one because I am working on an Oz novel that in part deals with Dorothy's sexuality but the outright exploitative nature of all three stories is not something I enjoyed.

Now I've read one really good blog post which comes to the conclusion that Moore is trying to compensate for his own Male privilege, and I'd agree to some extant.

Do I think Moore is a raging misogynist? No I don't.

Do I think that the crippling of Barbara Gordon was misogynistic and that Moore's work tends to be problematic? Yes, yes I do.

The thing I want to make clear is I am a fan of Alan Moore's work myself I like the Killing Joke it is one of the best Batman stories ever written. However using Barbara in such a way showed that she was disposable, when you end a Super hero's career it should be with a crowining moment of awesome. Here it was used specifically to advance the stories of the three male leads of the story, and that I find to be rather horrible.

I haven't read his Swamp-Thing stories, so I don't know about the Liz plot, but who do we see reacting to it? Who gets the most development out of it, is it Liz herself or the male characters in the book?

I wrote my own blog post on Moore a bit over a year ago. Now I'm a lot more familiar with some elements of his work now, then I was at the time of writing this and I'd do it differently today; but I tried to be fair.

And he has written some amazing scenes involving women. Lana's death in “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow” was a powerful and engaging scene and was done the way character death should be done, in my opinion. Not as a footnote to someone else's story but in a way that celebrates and honors what the character stood for.

I don't think I'm just looking at surface elements of Moore's writing, I tend to go alot deeper than that, and he may vary well have his motivations for writing things the way he's done. However, that does not excuse his work from often carrying problematic themes.

His work is however excellent, I will never deny that and there's quite a bit of it on my shelf.

[JerrBear]

That said, in most standard super-hero universes, it requires a fair bit of a stretch to retain the suspension of disbelief needed for a 'disabled' hero--there's simply too much magitech floating around for it to be plausible that no one would say, "Hey, wouldn't it be a good idea to get so-and-so's hearing back?" Failing to do so is a trope unto itself.

I think personal attitudes can be thrown in as well. If someone has come to accept that there's really nothing wrong with them, and are happy, they may be less likely to seek a "cure". May even be insulted by it (the only reason I quote cure is because I have heard of people in the disabled community who do consider the search for a cure a bit insulting. I myself see both sides of the argument).

[Ozaline]

Back in comics, Wolverine is probably the worst, as each new peek into his history seems to involve a new female character who either gets murdered or coerced into becoming a bad guy through a process of horrific mutilation, giving Logan a reason to paint the walls with blood. Moore, for all of the psychosexual weirdness(*) you find in his books, is fairly well regarded on that front and he and everyone else has moved on from Killing Joke, which was 23 years ago. Killing Joke got all of three words of mention in the original list. "Batgirl I (paralyzed)."

I'm not certain that Liz (Swamp Thing) and Silk Spectre (Watchmen) qualify either. Liz was a co-protagonist for much of Moore's Swamp Thing run, and the Spectre was one of multiple capes that Moore implies were killed as part of a violent red-scare purge. For that matter, Simone herself broke both of Black Canary's legs and chained her to a bed. The issue is less about violence against female capes and more about how that violence is used in the story.

(*) Personally, I find V for Vendetta to be much more creepy than either Killing Joke or the Swamp Thing run. But I think it's supposed to be horrific.

It's also that it's an overall trend, Simone would be the first to tell you that she's not against bad things happening to women, she's against the fact that he happens more often is more often premanent and is often used to advance another person's plot.

You can't have a superhero story where violence is not done against the heroes... you just can't. You're totally right it's how it's handled. On that end I don't think anyone makes "the Killing Joke" a special pet peeve, but since it was brought up it is still worth discussing.

The fact that KJ is a WiR moment does not excuse uncrippling Barbara from being potentially abelist and undoing a great amount of the characters personal storyarc. This is a character who did what we want to see every hero do, overcome adversity and become better for it. She's a character who can still defeat a mob of criminals in hand to hand combat while in her chair. She's awesome just the way she is.

[Ozaline]

That said, in most standard super-hero universes, it requires a fair bit of a stretch to retain the suspension of disbelief needed for a 'disabled' hero--there's simply too much magitech floating around for it to be plausible that no one would say, "Hey, wouldn't it be a good idea to get so-and-so's hearing back?" Failing to do so is a trope unto itself.

I think personal attitudes can be thrown in as well. If someone has come to accept that there's really nothing wrong with them, and are happy, they may be less likely to seek a "cure". May even be insulted by it (the only reason I quote cure is because I have heard of people in the disabled community who do consider the search for a cure a bit insulting. I myself see both sides of the argument).

For most people I know it's more gray then black and white... It's more the attitude that they're not a whole person, James Cameron's Avatar is full of this. Basically saying that Sully (I think his name was?) wasn't a complete human being cause he was in a chair, and the whole character's motivation at least in the start is to leave the chair.

There is a natural human disgust/sympathy reaction to anything that is different and that's what bothers disabled people most, in my experience. "They'll tell you if they need help, so please don't fawn over them." They just want equal treatment for the most part it's not that they wouldn't like to see or walk, it's that they don't want every little half step medicine can make for them to be seen as becoming "more human." *

Now onto the Reed Richards is useless trope, I really dislike that trope, because people have to realize that you can't take every hero into account with every story or there'd be no struggle there's a story where Batman goes into a land mine filled country to rescue a little girl, he ultimatly fails. Why doesn't he just call Superman and have him go into the country and disarm all the land mines while he's at it?

Disabled characters need to exist because disabled persons need to have people to identify with. Not every application of Super Science is a good one for storytelling purposes.

*I live with a disabled aunt and have several disabled friends. View points may vary on this but this is what I've come across

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Yeah, regardless of how Barbara Gordon was originally shot, there's been 23 years of character development based around her abilities as an elite detective and team leader, and offering a somewhat more credible take on the forensic use of information than Bats, who just waves his hand at a keyboard as a machina ex deus. It's the same reason why a lot of people rolled their eyes when Peter Parker was magically regressed to swinging single living with Aunt May. It's a nice idea and all, but writing off more than a decade of character development for a nostalgia trip is going to alienate fans of that character development.

Gordon's been offered a cure a couple of times, but with intolerable side effects and/or an obvious weakness that could be exploited in combat. And of course, she can't collate and feed real-time intelligence to her own team and the bat family while boxing thugs. Personally I think Gordon/Oracle probably ties with Detective Chimp for the title of World's Greatest Detective. And a brilliant thing about Simone's writing is that Oracle doesn't depend on the Batman stupidity aura to look good.

(*) More powerful than kryptonite! Batman's existence on the page lowers the IQ of just about everyone else.

[TCampbell]

I'm not certain that Liz (Swamp Thing) and Silk Spectre (Watchmen) qualify either. Liz was a co-protagonist for much of Moore's Swamp Thing run, and the Spectre was one of multiple capes that Moore implies were killed as part of a violent red-scare purge. For that matter, Simone herself broke both of Black Canary's legs and chained her to a bed. The issue is less about violence against female capes and more about how that violence is used in the story.

No offense meant, but I'm pretty sure you're getting the names mixed up here. Silhouette was murdered for being lesbian. Silk Spectre (the first) was raped by the Comedian.

Abby was a co-protagonist for most of Moore's Swamp Thing run, and in his hands, she became a much, much stronger character than she'd been before. Liz was a leftover from the previous administration, written out in Moore's first issue (#20, not the more frequently reprinted "Anatomy Lesson," which was #21). When she showed up again in #54, she was virtually unrecognizable as the strong woman Abby remembered, and it fell to Abby to save them both from Liz's abuser-- her boyfriend Dennis, who'd been written out at the same time.

It took me forever to track down a copy of #20, but I'm glad I did. It's pretty clear that Moore's plans had no place for Dennis or Liz in the near term, but he wrote them out in a way that could have been interpreted as a bittersweet ending for the couple-- yet, read with the later #54, pretty clearly sets up their gradual, horrible transformation.

(Somewhere, I know there's a Swamp Thing fan who liked the stuff before Moore, and who never forgave him for ruining "Lennis." It's helpful to remember such things. Gives one perspective.)

[Ozaline]

Abby was a co-protagonist for most of Moore's Swamp Thing run, and in his hands, she became a much, much stronger character than she'd been before. Liz was a leftover from the previous administration, written out in Moore's first issue (#20, not the more frequently reprinted "Anatomy Lesson," which was #21). When she showed up again in #54, she was virtually unrecognizable as the strong woman Abby remembered, and it fell to Abby to save them both from Liz's abuser-- her boyfriend Dennis, who'd been written out at the same time.

It took me forever to track down a copy of #20, but I'm glad I did. It's pretty clear that Moore's plans had no place for Dennis or Liz in the near term, but he wrote them out in a way that could have been interpreted as a bittersweet ending for the couple-- yet, read with the later #54, pretty clearly sets up their gradual, horrible transformation.

(Somewhere, I know there's a Swamp Thing fan who liked the stuff before Moore, and who never forgave him for ruining "Lennis." It's helpful to remember such things. Gives one perspective.)

Okay well that's interesting to know, someday I'll have to read Swamp Thing. It sounds from the way you describe it that it was more of a woman-centred plot that Abby was the main person to respond to the arc so that's good.

I still hold to my belief that Moore's work can be incredibly problematic at times, but that it is still good for all that.

Edit: God damn auto correct, I just realized in an earlier post I said I didn't think that Alan Moore was a raving mycologist which would be an interesting character idea. Someone who keeps going on about the mushrooms. THE MUSHROOMS ARE OUT TO GET US!

[CBrachyrhynchos]

I'm not certain that Liz (Swamp Thing) and Silk Spectre (Watchmen) qualify either. Liz was a co-protagonist for much of Moore's Swamp Thing run, and the Spectre was one of multiple capes that Moore implies were killed as part of a violent red-scare purge. For that matter, Simone herself broke both of Black Canary's legs and chained her to a bed. The issue is less about violence against female capes and more about how that violence is used in the story.

No offense meant, but I'm pretty sure you're getting the names mixed up here. Silhouette was murdered for being lesbian. Silk Spectre (the first) was raped by the Comedian.

Yeah I did, thanks for the corrections.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Edit: God damn auto correct, I just realized in an earlier post I said I didn't think that Alan Moore was a raving mycologist which would be an interesting character idea. Someone who keeps going on about the mushrooms. THE MUSHROOMS ARE OUT TO GET US!

Well you know, given that he devoted an entire series to thinly-veiled lectures on ceremonial magick, it wouldn't surprise me if some fungal psychedelics are involved.

[JerrBear]

For most people I know it's more gray then black and white... It's more the attitude that they're not a whole person, James Cameron's Avatar is full of this. Basically saying that Sully (I think his name was?) wasn't a complete human being cause he was in a chair, and the whole character's motivation at least in the start is to leave the chair.

There is a natural human disgust/sympathy reaction to anything that is different and that's what bothers disabled people most, in my experience. "They'll tell you if they need help, so please don't fawn over them." They just want equal treatment for the most part it's not that they wouldn't like to see or walk, it's that they don't want every little half step medicine can make for them to be seen as becoming "more human." *

Now onto the Reed Richards is useless trope, I really dislike that trope, because people have to realize that you can't take every hero into account with every story or there'd be no struggle there's a story where Batman goes into a land mine filled country to rescue a little girl, he ultimatly fails. Why doesn't he just call Superman and have him go into the country and disarm all the land mines while he's at it?

Disabled characters need to exist because disabled persons need to have people to identify with. Not every application of Super Science is a good one for storytelling purposes.

*I live with a disabled aunt and have several disabled friends. View points may vary on this but this is what I've come across

[/quote]

I agree. As I mentioned, I am somewhat in the middle on getting a cure for my own disability (Spinal Muscular Atrophy). As in I don't like the implication that in order for me to have a full happy life I need to be cured. Sure, if there's a cure I'll most likely take it (This is assuming it's not something forced on people).

[Alice Macher]

Count me in as another longtime Moore fan (it's hard to imagine what mainstream American and British comics would be like had he never written a word) who nonetheless recognizes that some aspects of his work are problematic. One point that Ozaline touched on, but could use expansion, is his over-reliance on rape as a major plot point, not just in terms of WiR syndrome, but overall. Ozaline mentioned the cavalier treatment of the Invisible Man raping schoolgirls. However, there's also Mina Murray being almost raped, in a Cairo opium den, at the very beginning of the series. And who saves her? Allan Quartermain who, just seconds before, was clearly shown in a narcotic stupor. In the second volume, the Invisible Man actually does rape her. In Volume III (still in progress), what motivates Nemo's daughter, who's refused to follow her father into the high-tech piracy business, to change her mind and become as cold and single-pointedly vengeful as he, if not more? One guess.

And it's not simply a matter of misogyny, the over-emphasis on rape (I don't think Moore himself is a misogynist the way that latter-day Frank Miller appears to be, and that Dave Sim very obviously is), because how does the Invisible Man meet his end in Volume II? Edward Hyde, who's in love with Mina, rapes and murders him. Doesn't get much more brutally "eye for an eye" than that. Another example, if one less familiar due to the legal rigamarole that's prevented the series from being reprinted for many years, is Moore's run on Miracleman, in which teenaged Johnny Bates, who's successfully if painfully managed to prevent his monstrous Kid Miracleman alter-ego from re-emerging and destroying humankind, finally gives in to temptation to spare himself from...all together now. Uh, Mr. Moore? There are other ways to motivate characters, whether on someone else's or their own behalf, other ways to move plots forward, than sexual assault. And there are other methods of punishing rapists than killing them in cold blood, with or without "paying them back" beforehand. Even in the U.S., which has one of the highest execution rates in the world, sexual assault isn't a capital offence. Why does it need to be in comics?

But again, it's not uniformly bleak. One of the reasons Promethea is my favourite of Moore's works (yes, even with the "thinly-veiled lectures on ceremonial magick"; I like them but admit readily they're not to everyone's taste) is that it features his most consistently strong woman protagonist and supporting characters throughout. None of them are sexually assaulted (though three of them are murdered, and out of these one's murder is merely mentioned); none of them need a man to rescue or avenge them. One of the Promethea incarnations is even a trans woman of sorts (it's complicated); this is still a rarity in mainstream comics (the wise, classy and very sexy Lord Fanny of Grant Morrison's The Invisibles being another rare example).

[CBrachyrhynchos]

I point to Top 10 as one of the best superhero comics when it comes to inclusion on race, sexual orientation, and disability.

[Freemage]

That said, in most standard super-hero universes, it requires a fair bit of a stretch to retain the suspension of disbelief needed for a 'disabled' hero--there's simply too much magitech floating around for it to be plausible that no one would say, "Hey, wouldn't it be a good idea to get so-and-so's hearing back?" Failing to do so is a trope unto itself.

I think personal attitudes can be thrown in as well. If someone has come to accept that there's really nothing wrong with them, and are happy, they may be less likely to seek a "cure". May even be insulted by it (the only reason I quote cure is because I have heard of people in the disabled community who do consider the search for a cure a bit insulting. I myself see both sides of the argument).

This works great for 'citizenry'. I fully get why, say, a news reporter or desk jockey or a weatherman or a cook might prefer to make the world work on their terms, rather than looking for a miracle cure for one disability or another.

But it strains credulity when you're talking about capes, for much the same reason that it would if we were talking about cops or firefighters. These are professions where physical prowess WILL be an issue at some point, and where physical conflict is almost unavoidable, and--and this is a big part of the issue--where other people's lives will depend upon your ability to perform the duties you're called upon to do.

Now, I can get around this a bit by declaring that Barbara/Oracle exists in the "Batman" splice of the DCU, where technology is usually "cutting edge" at best, and anything more than that tends to go horribly wrong. So it makes a certain amount of sense that Oracle can't just snap up a cure. (Still, even then, I think it's almost criminally stupid that her chair wasn't as rigged out as, say, the batcycle. Note: It's been a few years since I followed comics closely, and I'm speaking right now mostly of how I remember her, which was the first, glorious run of Birds of Prey.)