[6 December 2010] Horror Fiction

[Sebastian]

People really overuse accusations of Deus ex machinas. Where was the Deus Ex Machina in this arc?

Because as said before, nothing Cyndi really DID was worth getting arrested/punished for except the laxative prank. She was always careful to have plausible deniability for everything. But in spite of her being set up as this master manipulator and clever mindgame/liar person, she gets exposed to her parents because the Feds find and show them her convenient little mwha-huah-huah evil monologue files?

Honestly, I don't think Cindy was so clever or manipulative, she pulled her tricks on Michelle and Charlotte, two really impressionable girls, and a lot of people caught up that there was something seriously wrong with her. i think we are overestimating her ability and intelligence.

[mindstalk]

I'd thought it was something on Michelle's laptop too. But now I think the file on Cindy's laptop made them either think Michelle was an even bigger revenge suspect, or that she was a suicide risk.

[adamiani]

I'd thought it was something on Michelle's laptop too. But now I think the file on Cindy's laptop made them either think Michelle was an even bigger revenge suspect, or that she was a suicide risk.

Nah.

Michelle planted those files on Cyndi's laptop.

Why do you think it was so easy to crack?

Oh, yes.

Her plan's all coming together, now.

[Mung]

I'd thought it was something on Michelle's laptop too. But now I think the file on Cindy's laptop made them either think Michelle was an even bigger revenge suspect, or that she was a suicide risk.

Nah.

Michelle planted those files on Cyndi's laptop.

Why do you think it was so easy to crack?

Oh, yes.

Her plan's all coming together, now.

ROFL - Now THAT is funny.

[Ceomyr]

Nah it's not a deus machina to crack a teen girl's password. It wouldn't be that hard.

First of all it's the feds and with Cyndi missing it'll be easier for them to contact hotmail, facebook and other sites she was a member on and ask for her passwords so they can crack her computer and find out clues to save her. A lot of people reuse their passwords.

Two, many people use simple passwords, like "password", "123open", "opensesame", or what have you. Rather than brute force a password you can have your computer try those first and from what experienced hackers have said that'll get about 20% of passwords that people use. If Cyndi is in that 20% her password can be cracked fast.

Three, many other people use passwords based on family members, social security cards, phone numbers, and so forth these make for pretty easy guesses. This has worked before, in one instance a number of coworkers after 9/11 had to sit around and guess all the possible passwords their deceased friend could have used for some important business account, it took them a number of hours to get it but they got it. With the cooperation of Cyndi's parents this kind of solution is possible, keep in mind she appears to have missing for a while.

Four, when it comes to brute force attacks to figure out your password, most people reuse passwords so what you do is you attack the weakest site they're a member of (actually having her computer makes it much easier to look at her favourites list, go to a site and see if it automatically logs in under a user name).

Five, some forms of encryption have backdoors in them for law enforcement. Sometimes the company that writes encryption programs isn't interested in creating a product that will hide data from the FBI and othertimes companies will sell programs that help mine data from PCs or break certain kinds of encryption.

Sources for much of this:
http://onemansblog.com/2007/03/26/how-i ... passwords/
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/a ... ption.html

[JGoddess]

This thread has me convinced that everyone should be legally required to spend three months meeting with an actual psychiatrist, just to see how much of this faith in the institution survives.

Or better yet, six with one and six with another.

I don't know about that, but given your absolutist, "they're all evil" views on psychiatrists, the police and the wealthy, it might do you good to spend six months with a logician, studying what distinguishes strong arguments from fallacies.

oh snap

[Khymera]

EEEE!

Okay, I'm not sure how to feel about this, but that is really awesome.

I'm sure.

HALLELUJAH!!!!!

[Bardlp]

Also, they can do other kinds of tests. For example, showing Cyndi a bunch of pictures (neutral stuff (random guy gardening for example) as well as violent stuff - like people getting hurt by accident or corpses of murder victim). While doing that, thay would monitor Cyndi's brain in order to know if she actually can feel empathy. It's pretty similar to the pedophilia test, except with that one it's the penis they're checking.

You mean like this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thematic_Apperception_Test

I never realized how biased psychiatry was until I saw just how popular (and completely stupid) the TAT test was for the developmentally disabled. Every single case-file I've read with the TAT results in it says something like, "[Testee] has violent ideation." YEAH, DUH. Do they even look at the pictures they're showing people? Google Images-ing Thematic Apperception Test, the very first result makes me think the dude just murdered his wife and either feels bad or a little exhausted. </tangent rant>

[bridgetvoid]

People really overuse accusations of Deus ex machinas. Where was the Deus Ex Machina in this arc?

Because as said before, nothing Cyndi really DID was worth getting arrested/punished for except the laxative prank. She was always careful to have plausible deniability for everything. But in spite of her being set up as this master manipulator and clever mindgame/liar person, she gets exposed to her parents because the Feds find and show them her convenient little mwha-huah-huah evil monologue files?

Honestly, I don't think Cindy was so clever or manipulative, she pulled her tricks on Michelle and Charlotte, two really impressionable girls, and a lot of people caught up that there was something seriously wrong with her. i think we are overestimating her ability and intelligence.

agreed. She was clever in the people she picked. I never saw evidence she was so intelligent or manipulative that she could've pushed a healthy, happy person to something so against character. Michelle already had no self esteem (or tacked her self esteem to Stan) and Charlotte was the victim of what appears to be a horrific amount of physical and sexual abuse. In both cases she knew each one of them well enough to know their weaknesses. She duped Sara and Duane into potentially meeting her (for sex, conversation, who knows) but again she was preying on someone who was coming to terms with her sexuality and someone who was very lonely. Considering everyone suspected her of being evil, yeah, her godmode transformation is sort of unreasonable.

[JackFairy]

Nah it's not a deus machina to crack a teen girl's password. It wouldn't be that hard.

Ummm, that wasn't the Deus ex Machina part. Of course cracking her password would be pretty easy. For an FBI team. Who were conveniently there. You know, the way FBI often is around the houses of bitchy high school students who need a comeuppance. To search her laptop to give us evidence of the true deep unexcusable nature of her evil, where such evidence had not been properly presented in the narrative before, that would both explain and condemn.

[bridgetvoid]

Also, they can do other kinds of tests. For example, showing Cyndi a bunch of pictures (neutral stuff (random guy gardening for example) as well as violent stuff - like people getting hurt by accident or corpses of murder victim). While doing that, thay would monitor Cyndi's brain in order to know if she actually can feel empathy. It's pretty similar to the pedophilia test, except with that one it's the penis they're checking.

You mean like this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thematic_Apperception_Test

I never realized how biased psychiatry was until I saw just how popular (and completely stupid) the TAT test was for the developmentally disabled. Every single case-file I've read with the TAT results in it says something like, "[Testee] has violent ideation." YEAH, DUH. Do they even look at the pictures they're showing people? Google Images-ing Thematic Apperception Test, the very first result makes me think the dude just murdered his wife and either feels bad or a little exhausted. </tangent rant>

It's impossible to really understand a person with tests like these. The MMPI is one used to determine disability cases and lots of people end up being diagnosed as malingerers, who just happened to be malingerering the symptoms of the disease they were later diagnosed with, since obviously you don't become symptomatic the -day- you get diagnosed with something like MS or Lupus, but the way the test is designed, it sees the respondent's data and how it lines up with people who might malinger, and says the respondent must be. Can you imagine how insulting it must be for someone to be told "yeah from 2002-2006 you were totally faking it, but then you managed to get diagnosed with Parkinson's in 2007..what are the odds?"

[JackFairy]

OOOO - a Jane Eyre reference?

Thought it was a V.C. Andrews reference myself

It can be any number of references.

Hurray, someone who knows her literature! Although I disagree with TVtropes' overly simplistic characterization of the Victorian version of the trope.

[Bardlp]

@Briget -- I had a room-mate who was once told that she had MS because she wasn't pooping enough.

[TCampbell]

People really overuse accusations of Deus ex machinas. Where was the Deus Ex Machina in this arc?

Because as said before, nothing Cyndi really DID was worth getting arrested/punished for except the laxative prank. She was always careful to have plausible deniability for everything. But in spite of her being set up as this master manipulator and clever mindgame/liar person, she gets exposed to her parents because the Feds find and show them her convenient little mwha-huah-huah evil monologue files?

Honestly, I don't think Cindy was so clever or manipulative, she pulled her tricks on Michelle and Charlotte, two really impressionable girls, and a lot of people caught up that there was something seriously wrong with her. i think we are overestimating her ability and intelligence.

agreed. She was clever in the people she picked. I never saw evidence she was so intelligent or manipulative that she could've pushed a healthy, happy person to something so against character. Michelle already had no self esteem (or tacked her self esteem to Stan) and Charlotte was the victim of what appears to be a horrific amount of physical and sexual abuse. In both cases she knew each one of them well enough to know their weaknesses. She duped Sara and Duane into potentially meeting her (for sex, conversation, who knows) but again she was preying on someone who was coming to terms with her sexuality and someone who was very lonely. Considering everyone suspected her of being evil, yeah, her godmode transformation is sort of unreasonable.

I'm gonna allow myself one, and only one, response here.

I don't believe it would be possible for the most intelligent person on Earth to get Katy-Ann to commit suicide in the space of an hour. I mean, there are limits. However, Michelle does look pretty happy and healthy in her lunch with Cyndi. Sure she's got trouble ahead because Stan isn't in love with her and she's kind of needy, but Helen wishes she had such problems.

If you caught her in an honest mood, Cyndi would argue that just about anyone is destructible. Someone reasonably happy like Michelle might take months-- or, if Cyndi were as practiced as she is now, weeks-- and someone like Charlotte only minutes. But Cyndi was also quite careful-- almost careful enough-- not to do anything that would land her in the wrong kind of trouble. Even Exhibit A, Mrs. Levac's concerns, and Exhibit B, Penny's audio e-mail, failed to sway the jury. Only Exhibit C, something Cyndi couldn't possibly have anticipated, brought the weight of evidence to the tipping point.

Cyndi's "convenient little monologue files" look less convenient when you reflect that not only most disturbed minds, but most teenagers, keep some written record of their thoughts and feelings. Of course the FBI is going to want to go through that, and the Kristoffers have no cause to obstruct them. The FBI's involvement is explained by McBell (and, indirectly, Rob Levac) as a result of the Kristoffers' power and influence, the same power and influence that permits Cyndi an outrageously expensive car and a mink stole.

I'll concede that it wasn't foreshadowed much, but I couldn't figure out how to foreshadow it without giving it away. I mean, you guys are sharp. If we'd shown her typing "ha ha blood blood death blood" on her laptop back in "Out Front" or "Mister Smiles," you'd probably think "oho, Mrs. Kristoffer's going to read that and the jig will be up!" If we'd THEN shown her password-protecting it, you'd be like "Gosh, they sure are putting a lot of emphasis on that laptop." You did have all of "Missing Person" to figure out that the FBI was reading everything on there and were likely to find more than My Little Pony fan-fiction. I reserve the right to change my mind in four years, but right now I honestly can't see a better way to handle that detail.

[Kitsuiko]

Okay.

I'm going to quickly speak out for psychiatrists because apparently they're the one dimensional villains of the world. First off, I do not care if anyone has met one awful psychiatrist. You know what? Someone out there has probably choked to death while trying to eat a wax apple - this does not make all wax apples weapons of murder.

Anyhow, here's what's most likely REALLY happening:

If you suspect someone of mental illness or trouble then the first step is to take the person in FOR AN EVALUATION. Most psychiatrists and psychologists won't even begin treatment or counseling (more on that in a second) until AFTER THE EVALUATION. As they are her parents they can ask that she stay under watch (Hint: Watching a person commit suicide can lead to OTHER suicides, too. Most people who were close to someone who committed suicide are requested to be under observation immediately after to make certain there aren't more) since she is under 18 years old.

Her parents will most likely comply entirely and share the information they received from the police with the hospital in question. It will be VERY hard for Cyndi to fake her way past this - everyone is aware of the signs and her pleasing nature; heck, even her parents aren't fooled anymore.

Sociopathic behavior cannot be cured, but, counseling does help people. That is most likely what is going to happen; she's going to be evaluated to see if she is a danger to others and/or herself and then she's going to go into group and personal counseling to try and create an external moral system and make her understand the importance of this. They cannot keep her against her will once she is an adult and they can't "fix" her if she doesn't think her condition is a problem - but they will try to talk her through logically the problems of her behavior. What this frequently entails is the problems of punishment; the suffering of others may mean very little but having the consequences explained and rationalized out may be worth a lot more. I would guess they would point out to Cyndi that after this incident she is going to be a person of interest if she does anything major and she won't be able to dodge suspicion any further.

Now, admittedly, things might be different where you are from. But I am extremely confident that the process will look remarkably similar to this - no evil parents or totalitarian governments or hate or anything. Her parents want her to get help and to be better - that's not evil, that's responsible. Psychiatrists are DOCTORS and Cyndi is SICK. The rational course of action would be to try and do everything in your power to help her. Yes - some hospitals may be horrible but you know what? Some somethings may be something. That doesn't mean every or even MOST are like that.