Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

This forum is founded on discussions about T Campbell's work (alone and with artist partners).

Moderators: TCampbell, Gisele

Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby Topic Starter Robot » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:02 pm

Behind Closed Doors 23 24 25 26 27 28
Topic Starter Robot
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:55 pm

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby LadyObvious23 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:18 pm

.....this is why I hate Karen. What is Marshall to her? D=< This isn't how we treat our boyfriends. This is how she should've just ended up friggin' SINGLE.
Growing old is inevitable, Growing up is optional.
'As long as you cater to my every whim, fullfill my every wish, obey my every command and never argue with what I say I shall be your slave forever.'
User avatar
LadyObvious23
 
Posts: 1053
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:42 pm
Location: Right behind you.

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby CEOIII » Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:08 pm

LadyObvious23 wrote:.....this is why I hate Karen. What is Marshall to her?


Validation that she's not the hideous, ugly person that all her pre-makeover tormentors told her she was.
I'm Charlie Owens, good night, and good luck.
User avatar
CEOIII
 
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:49 am
Location: Franklin, PA

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby LadyObvious23 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:32 am

So him treating her like a person,giving her gifts and being genuinely caring isn't enough? She just has to freakin' invade his personal space and ASSAULT him?

Seems all she gives a damn about is POWER not love. And she doesn't deserve Marshall at all.
Growing old is inevitable, Growing up is optional.
'As long as you cater to my every whim, fullfill my every wish, obey my every command and never argue with what I say I shall be your slave forever.'
User avatar
LadyObvious23
 
Posts: 1053
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:42 pm
Location: Right behind you.

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby timemonkey » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:51 am

I don't think Karen understands the difference. What I've never understood is what Marshal saw in her beyond a pretty face.
timemonkey
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:24 am

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby oddtail » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:55 am

LadyObvious23 wrote:Seems all she gives a damn about is POWER not love. And she doesn't deserve Marshall at all.


I dunno. I'm no fan of Karen, but if being insecure, very needy and kinda dickish/bitchy was enough to make a person unfit for having a S.O., only about 5% of people would qualify for having a boyfriend or girlfriend.

At this point in the comic, Karen has not yet done anything partiuclarly awful, as far as I'm concerned.

And wanting power is not mutually exclusive with wanting love / loving someone. Many (most?) social interactions are all about power anyway, Karen is just being very cynical and bitter about it. Again, it doesn't make her a particularly good person, but she's not WORSE THAN HITLER!, either. At any rate - not yet.
User avatar
oddtail
 
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:21 am
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby FlyingFish » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:12 am

Stepping away from the Karen conversation, which I'll have more to say about next week anyway. Instead, I'll first take a moment to discuss #26: namely, Michelle's voiced dislike for her father. Is that an act ("get back at him" being an excuse for what follows)? Or real, or a combination? And if real, is it because his career is low-income compared to the parents of Michelle's peers (bad reason) or because he's inattentive to her and her needs, as seen when she starts starving herself (good reason, although "jerk" implies more intent than I think her dad has)? Or, again, a combination?

Also, re 23 and 24: I keep seeing Charisma, whenever Nick tries to turn the relationship more serious (or even discuss the possibility), immediately going into "distract him with the sexy" mode until he forgets where he was going. She wants to focus on the fun of today, but we'll see that she's also fearful that introducing family (read: Marshall) into the relationship will ruin it. (With Nick, she is dead wrong about this -- pushing Marshall AWAY is what ultimately ended things between her and Nick -- but I can imagine other men who really WERE about the fun of now walking away from her because of Marshall.) She's as insecure as Karen in a lot of ways, which makes Marshall's interest in Karen take on an interesting turn.
User avatar
FlyingFish
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:14 am

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby brasca » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:25 pm

FlyingFish wrote:Stepping away from the Karen conversation, which I'll have more to say about next week anyway. Instead, I'll first take a moment to discuss #26: namely, Michelle's voiced dislike for her father. Is that an act ("get back at him" being an excuse for what follows)? Or real, or a combination? And if real, is it because his career is low-income compared to the parents of Michelle's peers (bad reason) or because he's inattentive to her and her needs, as seen when she starts starving herself (good reason, although "jerk" implies more intent than I think her dad has)? Or, again, a combination?


That's one thing I found unappealing about Michelle. We find out later that her father used to spend a lot of time with her, but was encouraged by his wife to let her make friends her own age so I don't think he put his career ambitions above her happiness like she thinks. I suppose it's not unusual since Penny has similar resentment for her father although in his case he had to settle down due to health reasons. They're teenagers so they have a far greater tendency to be selfish. I may be alone this, but given Michelle's personality traits of being a yes girl, need to be loved and appreciated, and unsupportive parents I still think Helen was pushed out because the former could glam up better.
User avatar
brasca
 
Posts: 2759
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:57 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby timemonkey » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:35 am

All Show and no Tell really doesn't work, does it.
timemonkey
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:24 am

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby Doc Harleen » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:33 pm

oddtail wrote:At this point in the comic, Karen has not yet done anything partiuclarly awful, as far as I'm concerned.


Sorry - meant to respond to this last week but forgot. Sure, one must think that walking in on your partner in the shower when they don't want you to is pretty awful. Imagine if Rich did that to Penny, or if Jack did it to Katy-Ann, before they had given the okay. No matter what happens next, it's still an unwanted, aggressive, invasive action.
User avatar
Doc Harleen
 
Posts: 421
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:31 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby oddtail » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:48 am

Doc Harleen wrote:
oddtail wrote:At this point in the comic, Karen has not yet done anything partiuclarly awful, as far as I'm concerned.


Sorry - meant to respond to this last week but forgot. Sure, one must think that walking in on your partner in the shower when they don't want you to is pretty awful. Imagine if Rich did that to Penny, or if Jack did it to Katy-Ann, before they had given the okay. No matter what happens next, it's still an unwanted, aggressive, invasive action.


I respectfully disagree. Especially with your phrasing "one must think" - I think it's rather unfortunate, even if I assume you meant this as a figure of speech.

Yes, what you wrote was precisely my opinion during the comic's original run, but I've changed my opinion considerably since then. Now I think of Karen's actions as uncalled for, invasive and yes, wrong. But I don't consider them as awful as I did a couple of years ago when I first saw the comic.

And as much as it might stir a reaction from forum-ers that I say it - no, a boy walking in on a teenage girl is *not* the same as a girl walking in on a teenage boy. As much as we try to make things equal for both sexes/genders, things are *not* equal and I don't think it can be ignored. The expectations are different, the reactions and pre-programmed responses are different. I'm not saying Karen is in the right here, I'm saying the circumstances give Marshall more implicit power and control over what happens than if the situation were reversed. And consequently, the invasiveness is less awful.

In short - yes, what Karen does is wrong, but it's relatively easier for a man to get out of such an unwanted situation, and I'm not talking about physical strength in this situation.
User avatar
oddtail
 
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:21 am
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby Doc Harleen » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:23 am

oddtail wrote:
Doc Harleen wrote:
oddtail wrote:At this point in the comic, Karen has not yet done anything partiuclarly awful, as far as I'm concerned.


Sorry - meant to respond to this last week but forgot. Sure, one must think that walking in on your partner in the shower when they don't want you to is pretty awful. Imagine if Rich did that to Penny, or if Jack did it to Katy-Ann, before they had given the okay. No matter what happens next, it's still an unwanted, aggressive, invasive action.


I respectfully disagree. Especially with your phrasing "one must think" - I think it's rather unfortunate, even if I assume you meant this as a figure of speech.

Yes, what you wrote was precisely my opinion during the comic's original run, but I've changed my opinion considerably since then. Now I think of Karen's actions as uncalled for, invasive and yes, wrong. But I don't consider them as awful as I did a couple of years ago when I first saw the comic.

And as much as it might stir a reaction from forum-ers that I say it - no, a boy walking in on a teenage girl is *not* the same as a girl walking in on a teenage boy. As much as we try to make things equal for both sexes/genders, things are *not* equal and I don't think it can be ignored. The expectations are different, the reactions and pre-programmed responses are different. I'm not saying Karen is in the right here, I'm saying the circumstances give Marshall more implicit power and control over what happens than if the situation were reversed. And consequently, the invasiveness is less awful.

In short - yes, what Karen does is wrong, but it's relatively easier for a man to get out of such an unwanted situation, and I'm not talking about physical strength in this situation.


Fair enough on the "one must think" - it was indeed a figure of speech, and I wrote my post rather hastily during a short class break.

I guess it's hard for me to say if part of my opinion is also influenced by the knowledge of what will happen next, as it can be hard to separate that out. There are certainly room for different perspectives, and while I understand that a situation reversal might not be completely an equal situation in general, based on what we do know about Marshall and Karen specifically, he may have physical strength over her, but she does overpower and manipulate him emotionally.

It's a tough question. At this point, Karen probably just sees herself as "being forward" or "making a move" or something, while Marshall obviously feels that it is disrespectful and invasive. As terrible as Karen is, you're definitely right in the fact that up to here, she isn't shown acting with the level of manipulation that is soon to come.
User avatar
Doc Harleen
 
Posts: 421
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:31 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby oddtail » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:45 am

Doc Harleen wrote:It's a tough question. At this point, Karen probably just sees herself as "being forward" or "making a move" or something, while Marshall obviously feels that it is disrespectful and invasive. As terrible as Karen is, you're definitely right in the fact that up to here, she isn't shown acting with the level of manipulation that is soon to come.


I think the reason why I don't judge Karen particularly harshly is that the situation is largely miscommunication and ignorance on her part. What Karen is doing is wrong, but it is largely due to her having a rather stereotypical view of what boys and girls want (I'm guessing that based on her view on what it means to be beautiful/popular). This doesn't excuse her, but I give some leeway for teenage stupidity in such a situation.

And I do take into consideration everything that follows. Again, it's somewhat wince-inducing, but I see more stupidity than malice on Karen's part. And in the long term, Marshall is happy with how Karen handles the sexual part of their relationship (yes, I am aware that "eventually he's OK with this" is extremely iffy and definitely is not nearly enough to justify what Karen does at the moment. But it does colour my perception of the situation).

It doesn't help that Marshall's approach towards sex and physical intimacy is less than typical, and he is (as we later learn) a huge bundle of issues. He has every right to be and Karen absolutely should respect that, but again - she's acting on flawed assumptions rather than doing something she knows is wrong. I think it's not the deciding factor in judging her actions, but it is *a* factor.
User avatar
oddtail
 
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:21 am
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby FlyingFish » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:39 am

oddtail wrote:I think the reason why I don't judge Karen particularly harshly is that the situation is largely miscommunication and ignorance on her part. What Karen is doing is wrong, but it is largely due to her having a rather stereotypical view of what boys and girls want (I'm guessing that based on her view on what it means to be beautiful/popular). This doesn't excuse her, but I give some leeway for teenage stupidity in such a situation.

I gave a pass to your comments on differences in "invasiveness", but this one I'm not going to let slide. A boy does NOT get "leeway" under the law if he pressures/forces a girl with the stereotype-belief that "girls want it, they just play hard to get" or "a girl who gets close is hot to trot", and he should not get leeway by society either (even if he often does). I do not see how following "Boys ALWAYS want it, why even ask?" stereotype does not fall into the same category, especially in a situation where the boy repeatedly stated he did NOT want it.
User avatar
FlyingFish
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:14 am

Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby oddtail » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:22 am

FlyingFish wrote:
oddtail wrote:I think the reason why I don't judge Karen particularly harshly is that the situation is largely miscommunication and ignorance on her part. What Karen is doing is wrong, but it is largely due to her having a rather stereotypical view of what boys and girls want (I'm guessing that based on her view on what it means to be beautiful/popular). This doesn't excuse her, but I give some leeway for teenage stupidity in such a situation.

I gave a pass to your comments on differences in "invasiveness", but this one I'm not going to let slide. A boy does NOT get "leeway" under the law if he pressures/forces a girl with the stereotype-belief that "girls want it, they just play hard to get" or "a girl who gets close is hot to trot", and he should not get leeway by society either (even if he often does). I do not see how following "Boys ALWAYS want it, why even ask?" stereotype does not fall into the same category, especially in a situation where the boy repeatedly stated he did NOT want it.


I repeatedly said what Karen did was wrong. I also never said or meant to imply that what she did was legal. In fact, the legality of the situation is not very relevant to me personally (and I was, mind you, talking about my own view of the situation), because I can think of many situations where something is legal but reprehensible, and of several where I don't consider something illegal to be morally wrong.

But again - I don't know why I have to repeat it, but yes, I think Karen is clearly in the wrong here. I just don't see what she does as monstrous. I feel awkward, because it almost feels like I'm defending her actions. I'm not. In fact, if I were in Marshall's situation, I'd probably tell the girl who acted like that to kindly get lost (except I'd use less polite words). Such behaviour, depending on the specifics, might even be a complete dealbreaker.

All I said in my past few posts is that I am not nearly as outraged by what Karen does as I was when I originally read the comic years ago. And I did my best to explain why.

EDIT: to put it another way - maybe an analogy will explain better what I mean. I feel like I'm saying "OK, punching someone is wrong, but it can be something totally different depending on circumstances. And no, a guy getting punched is not the same as a girl getting punched, for a variety of reasons". And I feel like your response is "Oh, so you think punching a guy is OK/legal?". I do not. I do not defend anyone who performs an act of physical violence. But acts of violence are not born equal.

I don't know, does this analogy better explain the intention of my posts?
User avatar
oddtail
 
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:21 am
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Next

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron