[Off-Topic] [Edited title] Julia Maddera on Patriarchy

[Bardlp]

There're a lot of ten dollar words being thrown around in this discussion, and I tend to shove my foot directly down my throat when I get into these things, but this needs to be addressed.

About the text at the origin of this thread. Basically the author is saying that she's getting a lot of sexual and romantic attention that she doesn't want (plus some of these expressions are just nasty, but let's put that aside for a while). How many men think the exact opposite? That they desperately want romantic and sexual attention and aren't getting any? You spoke of your experience, this is mine. Who is better off, the one with a surplus of attention or the one with a complete lack of it? Why can't we just agree that both suck and try to find solutions? Why do we have to be in Oppression Olympics and designate a "winner"... And then blame the "loser" for everything?

There's issue to be taken here. The entitlement is close to painful.

You really don't realize that the problem isn't surplus sexual/romantic attention, do you? The problem is men feeling entitled to do things to the writer without her permission. Full stop.

If you think that the suck of a lack of sexual/romantic attention is in any way comparable to the suck of being afraid that someone is about to assault you, you may need to sit down and re-evaluate a lot of things. There's no Oppression Olympics involved here. One is terror and the other is ennui. Not the same class of problem at all.

Now, you could argue that some or even most of the come-ons were simply ignorant attempts at being flirty and not really intended to be threatening, but I'd disagree with you. Being a target changes your perspective from one of "I'm invulnerableman, yay!" to one of constantly being on alert. All women are made into targets some time in their lives. And if they're successfully victimized, much of the time, the people around them turn around and blame them for it.

As one of my Facebook friends commented on this piece, "I've often wondered how I would handle feeling powerless and afraid. Especially regularly. I don't have any idea." This is the difference between what happens to women and "being oppressed by mean ladies who don't come on to me enough".

I'll go into the corner now and begin prying my foot from my mouth.

[Ameyal]

Let's all agree that existing sucks for certain reasons and has its perks in others, and that those reasons are different for everyone

[Valerie]

Bardlp, nicely said.

To everyone who's been involved in this conversation, I just want to thank you. It's been very calm, and it's clear that we're all trying to find some common ground here.

Kchoze, the only thing I really have to say is that you're admitting Patriarchy exists. Patriarchy is a system as old as time that results in unfair things happening to women and men. I take some issue with the term "Patriarchy" because it seems to pin all the blame on the guys and insinuate that women are the only victims-- not true. While I would say women probably have it worse in a lot of ways, men also get the short end of the stick in quite a few areas-- as mentioned, men who like children are unfairly labelled as pedophiles, because it's assumed that only women would have the nurturing traits to raise children. It's insulting to you, as a man, because your options are being limited. It's insulting to me, as a woman, because you're saying that I'm somehow "supposed" to take care of the children instead of a man doing it.

There are several examples like this. When a woman hits a man, no one offers the man sympathy. Same with female-on-male rape. The men are being treated incredibly unfairly-- they're being hurt and told that it's their own fault for being "too weak" to fight off a woman. This is also insulting to women because we're being told that we're too weak to hurt men. (Now, obviously, men have it worse in this situation, but the fact is that it's hurting both of us.)

There are privileges. Humans are wired to be unable to see their own advantages, which is why it's easier for me, as a woman, to say things like, "FUCK, Kchoze has it so easy! He doesn't have to constantly be judged for his looks!" Whereas you, being a man, have an easy time saying, "FUCK, Valerie has it so easy! She can like pink/ponies/rainbows/ribbons/other feminine things without being called gay!" The grass is always greener on the other side.

But where we get lost on the issue is when we argue about who has it worse. Why should we care who has it worse? Why would that fix anything? I feel that women have it worse, but saying so isn't going to solve the problem. All we need to do, collectively, as a society, is say, "Hey, how come men/women are treated differently in this specific area? That's dumb, let's start treating them the same way."

And actually, a special thank-you to you, Kchoze. I know how hard it is to argue about this sort of thing-- I do it daily with my dad, who is... traditional, we'll say. You've kept calm and stayed respectful through the entire discussion, which is hard to do normally and even harder to do when so many people are on the opposing side. Also, welcome to the board if I haven't said it yet.

As for this...

Well, she could try hanging around here. . .I mean, you guys are all nice, including the men

It's true. It's like all the sexy, amazing, intelligent, enlightened people on the internet gather here. And then we talk about a webcomic.

inorite.

For a forum about webcomic, almost all the talks you're having here are incredibly building, deep, and not to mention; sane. Too bad I'm not here at Missing Person...I'd be glad to see what it's like here.

All you really missed was me defending a psychopath and crying a lot.
(I didn't really cry. I just used the ;____; face a lot.)

[Artemisia]

Valerie,

I think a lot of it has to do with the language being used. It's why this was so aggrivating to me.

[Valerie]

Right. It looked like everyone was mostly agreeing, but that the wording was being picked at. And, again, we don't use the best words-- words like "Patriarchy" give an inaccurate picture, and words like "privilege" are emotionally charged-- but this is the only vocabulary we have to work with when talking about these issues, as problematic as it can be, so we need to focus on the problems at hand rather than whether the words are perfect.

[sgtrock]

Well, she could try hanging around here. . .I mean, you guys are all nice, including the men

It's true. It's like all the sexy, amazing, intelligent, enlightened people on the internet gather here. And then we talk about a webcomic.

As the resident Grumpy White (Male) Curmudgeon, let me say, "Thank you."

...

Although, you including Paps in a group of people tagged as 'enlightened' worries me. I'm not sure what it says about the state of the universe, but it can't be anything good.

[Valerie]

Well, she could try hanging around here. . .I mean, you guys are all nice, including the men

It's true. It's like all the sexy, amazing, intelligent, enlightened (pick any 3) people on the internet gather here. And then we talk about a webcomic.

As the resident Grumpy White (Male) Curmudgeon, let me say, "Thank you."

...

Although, you including Paps in a group of people tagged as 'enlightened' worries me. I'm not sure what it says about the state of the universe, but it can't be anything good.

Fixed it.

[unavoidablytiger]

I hate this whole topic. Not because I disagree with the OP, but because I agree so wholeheartedly it's actual painful to sit and think about it.

I think the whole gender role issue is disgusting. My lips curl back and my nose wrinkles whenever I think about it. Girls who walk confidently out into world, only to be battered and bludgeoned back into their 'place' by society. Brittle and sharp women, honed by years of being constantly on guard, every second, every minute, every year, nervous systems strained by checking and rechecking to make sure their doors were locked, their defenses in place.

And just as bad, the strange thing that happens to boys when they grow up. I love little boys. They are sweet and fun and loving, free to play and cry and offer sincerity and weakness and love and support and all that wonderful humanity.

Then somewhere in there, horrible things must happen to them, because it is damn rare that you see a man who can openly show his emotions without being ridiculed, even by the people he loves and trusts, because that's not how society raised us. And he'll take it and say it's his fault, and suck it up, and then when we women complain about our gender expectations we had better damned well be willing to suck it up too because he gave up a piece of his soul to be the man society expects him to be.

It's ridiculous and horrifying to me. And stupid.

[Artemisia]

Well, I am trying to be nice I still have a lot of issues around men.

[Valerie]

I hate this whole topic. Not because I disagree with the OP, but because I agree so wholeheartedly it's actual painful to sit and think about it.

I think the whole gender role issue is disgusting. My lips curl back and my nose wrinkles whenever I think about it. Girls who walk confidently out into world, only to be battered and bludgeoned back into their 'place' by society. Brittle and sharp women, honed by years of being constantly on guard, every second, every minute, every year, nervous systems strained by checking and rechecking to make sure their doors were locked, their defenses in place.

And just as bad, the strange thing that happens to boys when they grow up. I love little boys. They are sweet and fun and loving, free to play and cry and offer sincerity and weakness and love and support and all that wonderful humanity.

Then somewhere in there, horrible things must happen to them, because it is damn rare that you see a man who can openly show his emotions without being ridiculed, even by the people he loves and trusts, because that's not how society raised us. And he'll take it and say it's his fault, and suck it up, and then when we women complain about our gender expectations we had better damned well be willing to suck it up too because he gave up a piece of his soul to be the man society expects him to be.

It's ridiculous and horrifying to me. And stupid.

Very nicely said, Tiger. Beautifully, in fact. And about such an ugly situation...

[unavoidablytiger]

Thank you Val. I both <3 and *hug* you.

[Artemisia]

Well, if you think about it, our society has these perceptions of what men and women are suppose to be, and any deviation from that is met with derision. It's what I meant by the Procrustean Society- Society has a structure that it imposes on us and anything that doesn't fit into that structure is suppose to be lopped off. For instance, a recent study actually found that the most virulent homophobes tend to be the deepest closet cases.

[Zanosuke Kurosaki]

Tiger, you just made me tear up a lot more than I expected. Because when I look at the little boy I used to be (very open and friendly, would go up and want to be friends with pretty much anyone), and then look at the man I am and how much repression I do (oft-times without even quite knowing I'm doing it), damn if it doesn't depress me to realize how horribly true that is. The same holds true for some of the few girls I knew and managed to stay in touch with from back then - it's damn depressing to see how guarded they are even with me, who they've known for quite some time and supposedly trust.

...man. It's times like these when teetotalism bites down hard. I suddenly want a drink.

[Valerie]

Well, if you think about it, our society has these perceptions of what men and women are suppose to be, and any deviation from that is met with derision. It's what I meant by the Procrustean Society- Society has a structure that it imposes on us and anything that doesn't fit into that structure is suppose to be lopped off. For instance, a recent study actually found that the most virulent homophobes tend to be the deepest closet cases.

Also, the sky is blue.

*hugs Tiger back* <3

But yeah, it's stupid. The whole thing is stupid. The fact that I have to carry a can of pepper spray to feel safe is stupid. The fact that I'm automatically terrified of guys I don't know who are standing a little too close is stupid. The fact that I've been told I should be automatically terrified of them is stupid. The fact that I have also been told that I'm overreacting is stupid. The fact that a man who is probably a perfect gentleman is being judged by me and my terror is stupid. The fact that he has done nothing wrong and is still putting me on edge is stupid.

But that's the world we live in. And it's stupid.

[Artemisia]

Yep, basically, they did a study to tell us all what we already knew.

It is horrible how society treats us. The problem is that change is slow in coming.