(27-2-12) Whiny Whininess

[Lia S]

"He/she" isn't so bad when it's used because of ignorance, the word "tranny" was learned somewhere. OTOH I agree that when used by someone who does know better, "he/she" is worse. Of course, "it" is still much worse, and I've met people who genuinely had no idea that calling someone "it" is dehumanizing...

[Bardlp]

People actually call other people "it"? That's pretty. Uh. Wow.

Thank you for that...I should point out that "he/she" is actually a lot more insulting than "tranny"

You mean calling someone the wrong gender pronoun, right? 'Cause the first couple of times I read that as "Calling someone by either gender pronoun is insulting" and I've never heard that before.

This would all be so much easier if the grammar nazis would just admit that we use singular, gender neutral, "they" all the time and have been doing it since Shakespeare.

[Artemisia]

People actually call other people "it"? That's pretty. Uh. Wow.

Thank you for that...I should point out that "he/she" is actually a lot more insulting than "tranny"

You mean calling someone the wrong gender pronoun, right? 'Cause the first couple of times I read that as "Calling someone by either gender pronoun is insulting" and I've never heard that before.

This would all be so much easier if the grammar nazis would just admit that we use singular, gender neutral, "they" all the time and have been doing it since Shakespeare.

Calling someone he/she or deliberately using the wrong gender pronoun is insulting, but accidentally doing that is understandable. It took my father five years to switch pronouns.

[bunnyThor]

It took my father five years to switch pronouns.

Wouldn't she be your mother then? Or maybe your other mother?

[belniente]

It took my father five years to switch pronouns.

Wouldn't she be your mother then? Or maybe your other mother?

Er anyways - I think Artemisia meant her father calling her by the female pronouns.

[Artemisia]

It took my father five years to switch pronouns.

Wouldn't she be your mother then? Or maybe your other mother?

Wrong direction :p

My father had trouble adjusting to the new pronouns with regards to me. My father isn't trans, though I have often wondered if my father is gay...and my mother lesbian. Neither will admit to those.

[Valerie]

I'm enjoying the comic. Might stop reading the *forums*, though.

Then please go away. I know that's what the "ignore" feature is for, but I thought you might stop being so passive-aggressive, as I've only been bugged by like... your last four posts, or something like that. But it's becoming clearer that you're stuck on offense mode.

This is a forum. It's meant for discussion. If you don't like that, you don't have to participate. Have a happy life.

Personal attacks? For expressing his opinion? While talking directly to T?

I'm pretty sure that's not what the forum is made for.

I know that tempers are (still) running hot here, but could we all please keep this civil?

He/she wasn't talking directly to T, and that "I'll stop reading the forums" was obviously an insult to all of the forum posters. Not to mention his/her latest posts (and those belonging to another poster I could mention and probably don't have to) have all been along the exact same lines.

I'll also note that this isn't some kind of "leftover tranny rage" like you seem to be insinuating it is.

[mindstalk]

He/she wasn't talking directly to T, and that "I'll stop reading the forums" was obviously an insult to all of the forum posters.

That's bullshit logic. "Might stop reading the forums" indicates unhappiness with the forum atmosphere in general, not with every single poster. Absent ignore lists or a willingness to use them, it could mean a single poster being so toxic as to drive me off. With them, it could mean, well, anything. Yeah, it was a bit passive aggressive, but it was also in response to people saying they were going to stop reading the comic, or were strongly thinking about it.

Not to mention his/her latest posts (and those belonging to another poster I could mention and probably don't have to) have all been along the exact same lines.

Recent posts:
"Estimated probability of not offending someone even with research, because the people you're writing about do not agree among themselves: 0."

"
There not being anyone around to offend usually does mean you're not offending, though. Unless Hank wants to get offended for the T community. Of course, if you want to be judgemental, Lisa's viewing people as types of flavor to sample seems more fundamentally offensive than a label. Of course, her tone of voice and possible self-deprecation of her own shallowness is not conveyed.

Poor Lisa. Being judged in her private moments by an invisible choir of the perfectly correct."

"Woot! Mutual date quasi-rape!" (Which, y'know, was a joke, on how the forum had worried Lisa raped Chrissie, and then things tilted the other way, and in fact neither really raped the other but both came away unhappy.)

"I can see #3 and 4 being creepy. Panels 6-8 are pretty good, hot even, though.

I wonder how much of this sexily confident Lisa can be credited to (or blamed on) Stan." Yeah, really offensive here.

[Valerie]

Recent posts:
"Estimated probability of not offending someone even with research, because the people you're writing about do not agree among themselves: 0."

"
There not being anyone around to offend usually does mean you're not offending, though. Unless Hank wants to get offended for the T community. Of course, if you want to be judgemental, Lisa's viewing people as types of flavor to sample seems more fundamentally offensive than a label. Of course, her tone of voice and possible self-deprecation of her own shallowness is not conveyed.

Poor Lisa. Being judged in her private moments by an invisible choir of the perfectly correct."

"Woot! Mutual date quasi-rape!" (Which, y'know, was a joke, on how the forum had worried Lisa raped Chrissie, and then things tilted the other way, and in fact neither really raped the other but both came away unhappy.)

"I can see #3 and 4 being creepy. Panels 6-8 are pretty good, hot even, though.

I wonder how much of this sexily confident Lisa can be credited to (or blamed on) Stan." Yeah, really offensive here.

If the "I'll stop reading the forums" was a sarcastic response to people not reading the comic, then I misunderstood. That's still offensive, but not on the same level I originally interpreted.

The "mutual date quasi-rape" also came across as more sour than you seem to have intended, probably because of a post before it by another poster.

As for the rest, the bolded parts are actually pretty offensive in general.

[mindstalk]

As for the rest, the bolded parts are actually pretty offensive in general.

I can see the "perfectly correct" as somewhat offensive; OTOH I think there's a real point about Lisa's every word, in a fairly private and vulnerable moment, being hyper-scrutinized by an invisible choir as if she were out in public insulting abuse victims and transsexuals right and left.

As for the other, okaaay.

[Valerie]

As for the rest, the bolded parts are actually pretty offensive in general.

I can see the "perfectly correct" as somewhat offensive; OTOH I think there's a real point about Lisa's every word, in a fairly private and vulnerable moment, being hyper-scrutinized by an invisible choir as if she were out in public insulting abuse victims and transsexuals right and left.

That might come down to a matter of opinion. One, we're reading about fictional characters. They exist so that we can interpret them and discuss the interpretations. So the "invisible choir" part doesn't make a lot of sense to complain about.

The other part is exactly how different you feel the following situations to be:
- Lisa having a private conversation with one other person and saying offensive things.
- Lisa out in public insulting abuse victims and transsexuals right and left.

Now, obviously, the second does a lot more harm than the first, but sometimes it's what we say in private that can really tell us about a person's character. If you're having a private conversation with a friend with whom you have never discussed racism, then that friend uses a rude word to describe a race, you become unsure of what exactly that friend's opinion is on that race of people.

So Lisa, from Hank's perspective at least, just belittled the hell out of sexual abuse survivors. And the rest of us don't really have much to go on with her opinions regarding sexual abuse, either, so of course a lot of us were like, "wtf, Lisa?" (I say this as one of the people who defended her on the grounds that she was upset and not thinking clearly. Despite my defense of her, I completely understand why other people were so upset.)

[Muttley]

You know, I was resigned to being castigated for using "he/she" but having rewritten my post a dozen times, I was stuck for an alternative.

Now I see: -

"He/she wasn't talking directly to T"

After the discussion directly above, it's difficult to regard this as a slip of the metaphorical tounge.

"and that "I'll stop reading the forums" was obviously an insult to all of the forum posters."

Facepalm and headdesk. You're digging a hole for yourself here, taking insult where none is intended, and worse, assuming that "all of the forum posters" agree with you.

By retreating down the Politically Correct alley and concentrating on, for instance, special meanings for language that most people find unthreatening, you're building a barrier.

Let's walk together under the same sky, not huddle in little ghettos hung up on being different.

[Captain LeBubbles]

You know, I was resigned to being castigated for using "he/she" but having rewritten my post a dozen times, I was stuck for an alternative.

Now I see: -

"He/she wasn't talking directly to T"

After the discussion directly above, it's difficult to regard this as a slip of the metaphorical tounge.

In this case the situations are completely different. Referring to Chrissie as he/she after she's so vehemently declared her gender is rude and insensitive. Referring to someone online whose gender isn't known to you as he/she isn't. The difference is in the situations. We know Chrissie is a woman; she said so herself. We don't know the other person's gender, because (to my knowledge) we've not been told.

[Alice Macher]

By retreating down the Politically Correct alley

I'm just going to leave this here, an article Mr. Brightside recently linked to in another thread:

"Politically Correct:" I Do Not Think That Means What You Think It Means


Disclaimer: The author of this piece uses a certain vulgar word for a bodily orifice throughout, for rhetorical effect. By linking to this article, I am not condoning the use of this word to describe anyone, on or off the forum. I link to it merely as an explanation of why I intensely dislike the term "politically correct" and its variations.

[Valerie]

You know, I was resigned to being castigated for using "he/she" but having rewritten my post a dozen times, I was stuck for an alternative.

Now I see: -

"He/she wasn't talking directly to T"

After the discussion directly above, it's difficult to regard this as a slip of the metaphorical tounge.

Captain LeBubbles already explained this. If I knew what gender mindstalk is, it would be rude to refer to mindstalk as "he/she." As it is, I do not have any idea what mindstalk is or what mindstalk identifies as being. Therefore, "he/she" is the proper pronoun to use until I have a better idea.

"and that "I'll stop reading the forums" was obviously an insult to all of the forum posters."

Facepalm and headdesk. You're digging a hole for yourself here, taking insult where none is intended, and worse, assuming that "all of the forum posters" agree with you.

\

I never said the other forum posters agreed with me. I said I was tired of it. I didn't say "Alice is tired or it" or "Adrishiana is tired of it" or "Muttley is tired of it." Please don't put words in my mouth.

As for "taking insult where none is intended," I've already resolved that issue with mindstalk. He/she meant it as a "take that" to the people saying they would stop reading the comic. I initially read it with a harsher tone, meant to be "the posters on this forum are (some undesirable noun or adjective)." Text causes misunderstanding sometimes. This has been worked out, and I don't see why you're stuck on it.

By retreating down the Politically Correct alley and concentrating on, for instance, special meanings for language that most people find unthreatening, you're building a barrier.

Let's walk together under the same sky, not huddle in little ghettos hung up on being different.

Meaning is why words matter in the first place. If we didn't need to convey certain meaning and feelings, we wouldn't have various words for what's generally considered the same thing. Thus "fag" versus "homosexual person" and "nigger" versus "black/African American person."

Not to mention the exchange with mindstalk had nothing to do with political correctness in the first place. I read mindstalk's posts as being rude and addressed him/her on it. He/she didn't use any racial slurs or try to perpetuate stereotypes or anything that was politically incorrect. I have no idea why you're seeing "political correctness" as being relevant to the conversation mindstalk and I have been having.