The unofficial bad day thread.

[Doc Harleen]

I guess I'm an idiot, because I don't get the 'Nice Guy' thing, even with their detailed explanations.

An excerpt from a five paragraph long definition of a Nice Guy, written by someone whom I suspect doesn't realize he is one:

"The nice guy will eventually realize that his dependability and empathy will never be appreciated and all his friendships with females are all one-sided. This coupled with years of watching girls go for tanned, muscular jerk-offs with nice cars while he desperately hopes someone will realize that how viable he actually is will spawn and incubate the nice guy’s insecurities and he will eventually abandon his views, dumb-down his speech, take-up weight-lifting and switch majors from cancer research with a minor in theoretical physics to playground management so he can devote his time to emulating Baywatch characters and football players so that he will one day be viewed as more than a “nice guy.”

The nice guy will eventually work up the courage to ask out his attractive female friend but will invariably be turned down because she’s so self-centered that she’d never actually had a smidgeon of compassion for the nice guy’s feelings or even realized that he’s interested in girls."

But, to shorten things up, Nice Guys are notorious for targeting women who either are already in relationships or are simply uninterested in being in a relationship with them, then misrepresenting their intentions as platonic while being under the impression that they deserve sex/relationships because they're such nice guys. If this doesn't happen, they conclude that this is because women are shallow and/or stupid and like to be mistreated (because they're such a nice guy).

This is, of course, different from merely being a nice guy.

Regarding the definition: Wow, genuine irony! That's hard to find these days.

[Kamino Neko]

I'm trying really hard to be a positive person, so I don't think I've used the bad day thread yet, but after an exhausting 50-hour work week, with too little time left to study for a midterm, I just found out from my hubby that symptoms of a medical problem he has are starting to return, despite the medication that controls them. It's had flare-ups here and there, not life-threatening, but not good at all, and when he's suffering with it, I basically turn into a neurotic emotional mess with worry, which doesn't help him any. I am hopeful it will clear up soon, but I freak out and get into a really terrible headspace whenever it happens, so I'm letting it out here instead of at him.

Has he spoken to his doctor about it? (I hope he does have one, anyway...dealing with a chronic condition but no continuity of care is insane.) Maybe his medication needs adjusting, either dosage, or another med?

Hugs to you both, either way.

[Valerie]

But, to shorten things up, Nice Guys are notorious for targeting women who either are already in relationships or are simply uninterested in being in a relationship with them, then misrepresenting their intentions as platonic while being under the impression that they deserve sex/relationships because they're such nice guys. If this doesn't happen, they conclude that this is because women are shallow and/or stupid and like to be mistreated (because they're such a nice guy).

This is, of course, different from merely being a nice guy.

This is a pretty good summation of it, yeah.

It's the guy that wants to ask you out but is too nervous (which in itself is kind of cute, imo, but not exactly healthy), and then he basically just hangs out until you "come to your senses."

Are there girls that date jerks? Yes. Can some outside force change that? No. Should an outside force, who feels he has something to gain from it, continue trying? No. It's manipulative.

XKCD explains it pretty well, I think.

Harleen: I'm really sorry to hear that. *hugs*

[Doc Harleen]

I'm trying really hard to be a positive person, so I don't think I've used the bad day thread yet, but after an exhausting 50-hour work week, with too little time left to study for a midterm, I just found out from my hubby that symptoms of a medical problem he has are starting to return, despite the medication that controls them. It's had flare-ups here and there, not life-threatening, but not good at all, and when he's suffering with it, I basically turn into a neurotic emotional mess with worry, which doesn't help him any. I am hopeful it will clear up soon, but I freak out and get into a really terrible headspace whenever it happens, so I'm letting it out here instead of at him.

Has he spoken to his doctor about it? (I hope he does have one, anyway...dealing with a chronic condition but no continuity of care is insane.) Maybe his medication needs adjusting, either dosage, or another med?

Hugs to you both, either way.

Thank you for the hugs. He does have a GP but has a hard time getting an appointment with him. The meds generally maintain things, but the flare-ups freak me out because things were really bad before they found a medication that worked for him. We probably need to find him a new GP, just in general.

[Doc Harleen]

But, to shorten things up, Nice Guys are notorious for targeting women who either are already in relationships or are simply uninterested in being in a relationship with them, then misrepresenting their intentions as platonic while being under the impression that they deserve sex/relationships because they're such nice guys. If this doesn't happen, they conclude that this is because women are shallow and/or stupid and like to be mistreated (because they're such a nice guy).

This is, of course, different from merely being a nice guy.

This is a pretty good summation of it, yeah.

It's the guy that wants to ask you out but is too nervous (which in itself is kind of cute, imo, but not exactly healthy), and then he basically just hangs out until you "come to your senses."

Are there girls that date jerks? Yes. Can some outside force change that? No. Should an outside force, who feels he has something to gain from it, continue trying? No. It's manipulative.

XKCD explains it pretty well, I think.

Harleen: I'm really sorry to hear that. *hugs*

That xkcd is a great explanation. And thank you. People on this board are so awesome.

[Lia S]

I guess I'm an idiot, because I don't get the 'Nice Guy' thing, even with their detailed explanations.

It's the idea behind the archetype. A genuinely nice guy isn't going to have problems, because he's basically just a decent human being who has manners and thinks of others when he says and does things. A Nice Guy is a guy who goes through all the motions, but his endgame is what he can gain from it, rather than just the concept of basic decency.

There is a bit of a confusing problem with the Nice Guy concept: not everyone who is genuinely nice will have no problems, there are other things that can make someone a relationship failwhale. For example extreme shyness, or self-destructive attraction to poor choices of partner (likely because of low self-esteem), or perhaps bad breath that friends don't dare to mention.
Talking about the Nice Guy problem to someone who has a different and unrecognized problem can be harmful because they may think it applies to them and start hating themselves (more). OTOH explaining it to them when there are actual Nice Guys in their environment is a good idea because Nice Guyness is contagious.

So, to be clear:

Being unable to stop loving someone who isn't interested or who keeps sending mixed messages does not make you a Nice Guy, unless you think you can somehow change them.

All your past partners being mean doesn't necessarily make you a Nice Guy, you may have a different problem. Don't try to solve it by being even nicer, that's giving jerks something they don't deserve, probably makes your problem worse, and once you become cynical it will change you into a Nice Guy.

Thinking of someone as a machine that will do things that make you happy in exchange for your "niceness" DOES make you a Nice Guy.

[/rant]

Big hugs to Harleen and everyone else who has reason to post to this thread.

[NobodySpecial]

Well, I'll just have to leave at the explanations on the board, which generally make sense and don't add on lame and/or contradictory 'advice' like that whatever board that got linked here. I can understand the root cause of NiceGuyism being an innate lack of self-esteem; I have low self-esteem to begin with thanks to the lovely brain chemicals, and that's a large part of the reason I've basically given up on the whole dating thing. I dislike the additional premises they seem to put forward that all the people with NiceGuyism are therefore solely trying to be manipulative bastards and hate women or merely perceive women as receptacles, rather than being able to be friends with any of them. There comes a point where their generalizations don't work and aren't helpful.

[Valerie]

Well, I'll just have to leave at the explanations on the board, which generally make sense and don't add on lame and/or contradictory 'advice' like that whatever board that got linked here. I can understand the root cause of NiceGuyism being an innate lack of self-esteem; I have low self-esteem to begin with thanks to the lovely brain chemicals, and that's a large part of the reason I've basically given up on the whole dating thing. I dislike the additional premises they seem to put forward that all the people with NiceGuyism are therefore solely trying to be manipulative bastards and hate women or merely perceive women as receptacles, rather than being able to be friends with any of them. There comes a point where their generalizations don't work and aren't helpful.

This part means that you are not a Nice Guy. You're just a nice guy.
Here's another article, if it might help make the distinction clearer?

This part:

If you (male or female) have a thing for someone and they tell you they don't return it, waiting around and playing at being a sympathetic friend in the expectation that you'll wear them down and get yours one day makes you an asshole, not a friend.

Just to be clear, I dealt with a lot of these types, too.

There was a guy named Aaron at my school who would periodically ask me out or make flirty/jokey comments. I would turn him down nicely ("I don't want a boyfriend right now," or "I'm busy this weekend," which is actually a bit of a cop-out, I admit, etc.) but he always tried again later. There was a brief window of time in 9th grade that he tried being friends with me-- and I was fine with that. He would borrow manga from me and we would talk about them during English class (which is the class we had together).

The problem is that he didn't stop. We would write journals every morning-- just a little like twenty-minute thing for English class-- then we had the option of sharing what we wrote with the class. One day, after being turned down by me immediately before the bell for the start of class rang, he shared what he wrote. It was a story about a lovesick boy and how this girl wouldn't return his affections and, at the end of the story, he died of heartbreak under a tree.

He made me incredibly uncomfortable, especially in that instance, because my friend (who sat in front of me and heard the turn-down) and I both knew what he was getting at. For the most part, he didn't seem like a bad guy-- but the passive-aggressive public shaming and guilt trips were not cool.

I feel a little bad talking like this about him, because he died right after graduation. But, you know, talking about a dead person like they're the best thing ever is just plain dishonest, and I'm an Applejack if ever there was one.

[NobodySpecial]

Well, I'll just have to leave at the explanations on the board, which generally make sense and don't add on lame and/or contradictory 'advice' like that whatever board that got linked here. I can understand the root cause of NiceGuyism being an innate lack of self-esteem; I have low self-esteem to begin with thanks to the lovely brain chemicals, and that's a large part of the reason I've basically given up on the whole dating thing. I dislike the additional premises they seem to put forward that all the people with NiceGuyism are therefore solely trying to be manipulative bastards and hate women or merely perceive women as receptacles, rather than being able to be friends with any of them. There comes a point where their generalizations don't work and aren't helpful.

This part means that you are not a Nice Guy. You're just a nice guy.

Please do not insinuate things like that, I have a public image to uphold.

[Valerie]

This part means that you are not a Nice Guy. You're just a nice guy.

Please do not insinuate things like that, I have a public image to uphold.

[Black Cat Godess]

It's been so helpful reading all the comments here. I've been told by HR that they've talked to the guy and that he never intended to make me uncomfortable (whi ch is truthfully what I thought it was) and that the situation should be resolved. Valerie, it sounds like what you went through was even worse and that really sucks; I can't even tell you how much I hate passive agressive stuff like that stunt he pulled with the story.

[Valerie]

It's been so helpful reading all the comments here. I've been told by HR that they've talked to the guy and that he never intended to make me uncomfortable (whi ch is truthfully what I thought it was) and that the situation should be resolved. Valerie, it sounds like what you went through was even worse and that really sucks; I can't even tell you how much I hate passive agressive stuff like that stunt he pulled with the story.

Yeah, there are guys (and girls) that just fail at social graces, so it's totally possible (and even probable) that he was just trying to flirt-- it was just in a very misguided and inappropriate way. As long as he learns from it and stops bugging you, everything's cool.

And eh. I'm in the Bible Belt. People here think that's the sort of thing "puppy love" consists of.
If it makes you feel any better, I had no hesitations about hurting the James guy I mentioned before-- he was just too aggressive to not be hurt. I bit his arm once when he hugged me (after I very plainly said "Don't touch me"). This caused him to shout an obscenity and get the fuck away from my house. Unfortunately, he didn't learn from it and kept coming back anyway, which further supported my belief that he was an idiot and certainly not dating material.

My mom, older sister, and sister's friend, when I went back in the house (I bit him on the porch after he worked me into a corner and gave me physical contact that I was very clear about not wanting), asked what that scream was. I told them, taking my toothbrush out of my mouth for a second, that James hugged me when I told him not to and I bit him. They thought this was hilarious, but between the laughter were like, "Well, you told him not to touch you." They all still thought I should date him even after that, though.

Anyway, I'm really happy to hear that your own issue is being resolved. Everyone seems to be on your side, so the aftermath should be easy to handle. Congratulations. <3

[Black Cat Godess]

The dude hugged you after you told him not to touch you? If that happened to me, a bite would be the least of his worries. I have issues with crows and being touched, so me in that situation equals massive panic attack and possible complete histeria. I am not responsible for what happens in that situation and neither were you.

They are called boundaries, people. Learn them and respect them.

[Valerie]

The dude hugged you after you told him not to touch you? If that happened to me, a bite would be the least of his worries. I have issues with crows and being touched, so me in that situation equals massive panic attack and possible complete histeria. I am not responsible for what happens in that situation and neither were you.

They are called boundaries, people. Learn them and respect them.

*nods* Like Freemage said, a big part of the problem is that movies and whatnot make the idea of forcing yourself on a woman (as long as it's not much after a kiss) seem romantic. Obviously, it is not. What I find romantic is a guy that respects my decisions and listens when I say not to do something involving my own body, even if it's as (relatively) harmless as a hug.

But, of course, everyone either just thought it was funny or that I was the bad guy for being violent when he was just trying to be nice. Because it's not like some silly girl at the age of 13-17 would have any real objections to a hug.

While ageism does have some basis, keep in mind that I was changing diapers and making formula for my little sisters when I was nine. And that I loaned my mom $11.50 so she could pay the water bill when I was fourteen. Which she used to buy cigarettes and our water was cut off. Chyeah, I'm pretty sure I was the adult in our home situation, 13-17 or not.

[Black Cat Godess]

I've never thought of that crap as particularly romantic, so I'm with you this one 100%, Val. In fact, I'm not particularly fond of most romantic comedies anyway, which is the genre most at fault for perpetuating such stereotypes. And I also hear you on the growing up fast thing. While I was lucky and didn't have to deal with that, because my dad did have to go through stuff like that is why my dad made sure I have a good sense of responsiblity.