9 Jan 12: Accept yourself

[CBrachyrhynchos]

No, in all seriousness, I think one thing that has made me (and some of the other "Lisa haters," which seems to mean "anyone who gives Lisa anything less than full and complete adoration at all times") ...

http://youtu.be/HUztQNIbEaE

[Shadrach]

Hey, now. I may find myself disagreeing with Adrishiana's stances on this or that, but she's no troll. Not even close.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Hey, now. I may find myself disagreeing with Adrishiana's stances on this or that, but she's no troll. Not even close.

There are trolls and there are trolling comments (which everyone makes on occasion). I can't take a line like, "anyone who gives Lisa anything less than full and complete adoration at all times" seriously.

[Alice Macher]

Yes, CBrach, but "troll/trolling" is a loaded word, so if you're going to use it... y'know.

That said... I seem to remember calling certain of Lisa's actions wrong at least a few times:

I think there was a rather big discrepancy between Lisa's earliest appearances where, while she could be friendly and cheerful, was more often than not, as Twitcher's post from earlier today points out, an angry, chip-on-the-shoulder little snot. That's right, I, Alice, actually said that. Because come on, going up to someone who's not forcing her religion on anyone and mocking her beliefs to her face isn't cool. Neither is reacting openly rudely to both Karen and Marshall when neither, not even Karen, had yet done real harm to people close to her.

Still, I had to acknowledge Twitcher's point regarding Lisa setting up the sequence with the nose-beep being followed almost immediately by Exxes and Ohhs, with the rather public accusation that would entail.

Hm, Twitcher's point, and yours, is well taken. I'd forgotten about the "Lezzy Lesbo Lesbians" bit. That was overkill, to put it charitably, even if Liz seemed rather amused when reading it.

Also...Lisa, sweetie, I love you, I really do. But right now you're being bitchy with extra bitch sprinkles. Penny was already starting to cool down; then you fired her up again, and took a swipe at Sara. I think you need to take off for now, as well.

And, Tamar's done so at least once, for example:

Bad Lisa! No phone sex in the dorm unless you know your roomie's out. Tsk tsk!

So, Adrishiana... I guess Tamar and I are Lisa-haters, then?

There's a difference between "full and complete adoration at all times," mostly liking/loving a character but recognizing when she messes up on occasion... and, well, what Lisa-posts by you, Ameyal, LadyObvious23 and NobodySpecial come across as, namely pretty much always interpreting Lisa's words and actions in the worst possible light, and continuing to do so even when the author of the webcomic points out where you've misinterpreted or exaggerated things.

No, it's not trolling. Yes, you, Ameyal, LadyObvious23 and NobodySpecial have every right to make those comments, and I'd oppose any attempt to force you (plural) to stop. But when you (plural) pursue lines of argument that twist Lisa's actions and words wholly out of proportion, and fly in the face of facts which the author of the webcomic has pointed out, you can well expect that others will call you on it. Not because they worship the fictional ground fictional Lisa walks on and think she's better than God and that her farts smell like roses. Rather, because they believe criticism of characters should be just and proportionate.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Yes, CBrach, but "troll/trolling" is a loaded word, so if you're going to use it... y'know.

I found it to be an inflammatory claim exaggerated beyond reason or belief for the purpose of starting or escalating an argument. Perhaps I'm just an old usenet fart here, but that's trolling by definition. Nothing wrong with doing it in moderation, and nothing wrong with calling it out as such either.

Perhaps I should have used Skyrim Zoidberg, Macho Dragons, or my old standby kittens in bowls instead. But "full and complete adoration at all times" doesn't need or deserve an earnest response. (Neither did the Titus Andronicus comment IMO.)

[Zanosuke Kurosaki]

Excellent and well-written post by Alice

I would so give karma or rep or something for that if I could.

Also! This argument can extend to other characters. Me, personally? I happen to quite dislike Bob, Elmer, and Karen during the Popsicle Wars, to name a couple. I sometimes dislike Sara's attitudes, focus, and outlook. Am I going to be (metaphorically) calling for their blood every chance I get? Uh, no that would be going a tad too far. Besides that they're, y'know, fictional (superbly-written, but still not real), I also realize the approach T is shooting for is "they're people just like me, and people screw up sometimes. Brandi said it best, if we scragged everyone that kept messing up all the time, Katy-Ann would get awfully lonely." Heck, even KA would have to go, after her underestimating Jack when she found that months-old beer in his closet.

Anyway, my point is - okay, fine, dislike a character, that's a person's right, and I would gladly defend that. Not everyone will like everyone else, after all. But for cripes' sake, at least dislike the characters for the wrongs they actually have done, instead of working oneself up into a huge dislike of them based more on personal prejudices/experiences/inclinations/whatever? That's like meeting someone new who turns out to at first only superficially resemble someone in your (using the hypothetical "your" here) life that you disliked, and attaching a dislike of everything they do and say, just because of that superficial resemblance.

Sometimes I think this is some of why Stan gets the hate he does. Personally, this is why I wish people would -stop- calling him "douchebag" and the like, because at one point in my life, I almost was a Stan, and when people bag on his character for things he hasn't done and are only maybe tangentially-related to what he did mess up on? Well, somehow it feels like a volley being lobbed at me, too. Wish I could say why, not quite sure on that one.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Now personally, I love Lisa and Sara because they're deeply flawed characters in the process of growing up and learning to get over their own bullshit. P&A still had a ways to go, but I think the HS was fairly well tapped out there.

[Adrishiana]

So, Adrishiana... I guess Tamar and I are Lisa-haters, then?

There's a difference between "full and complete adoration at all times," mostly liking/loving a character but recognizing when she messes up on occasion... and, well, what Lisa-posts by you, Ameyal, LadyObvious23 and NobodySpecial come across as, namely pretty much always interpreting Lisa's words and actions in the worst possible light, and continuing to do so even when the author of the webcomic points out where you've misinterpreted or exaggerated things.

No, it's not trolling. Yes, you, Ameyal, LadyObvious23 and NobodySpecial have every right to make those comments, and I'd oppose any attempt to force you (plural) to stop. But when you (plural) pursue lines of argument that twist Lisa's actions and words wholly out of proportion, and fly in the face of facts which the author of the webcomic has pointed out, you can well expect that others will call you on it. Not because they worship the fictional ground fictional Lisa walks on and think she's better than God and that her farts smell like roses. Rather, because they believe criticism of characters should be just and proportionate.

I have tons of respect for T., but even he isn't always going to be completely objective about his own work (I have never met an author who can be - I'm sure they're out there, but the point is that it is hard to be objective about something you create), and there's a good chance that he's going to have a kinder opinion of his characters than many of his readers will. If I remember correctly, he felt there was chemistry between Penny and Aggie; some of the readers disagreed (self included, although I didn't object to the relationship either - mostly, I just wanted them to end the series in a positive relationship and didn't care if it was platonic or romantic). He has a much better opinion of Stan than some of his readers do. And so on.

As it is, just because T. says that Penny, Aggie, and Sara were all okay with Lisa treating them like shit does not mean that I am unreasonable or, well, wrong because I don't think it's okay to treat your friends like shit. People are going to have a different opinion on essentially lying to get your way, and that's not a bad thing.

[Valerie]

As it is, just because T. says that Penny, Aggie, and Sara were all okay with Lisa treating them like shit does not mean that I am unreasonable or, well, wrong because I don't think it's okay to treat your friends like shit. People are going to have a different opinion on essentially lying to get your way, and that's not a bad thing.

T didn't say they were okay with it. They were very clearly angry at first. They just forgave her later. That seems to be the part we're having trouble with. To some of us, it seems like Lisa shouldn't have been forgiven for some of the things she's done, and her friends certainly were upset with her at the time, but they valued the friendship too much to let go of it.

For all the bad things Lisa's done, she's also done good things. She helped Sara figure out that she was gay (in a pushy way, granted) and then helped her to come to terms with that realization ("You think 'cause we wear rainbows this is like 'How to be a Raging Homo 101?'"). Coming out is a very scary process for most people, and Sara had the lesbian-rape rumor on top of that. Lisa was one of the people who supported her through it. Sara isn't willing to lose a friend like that over a few transgressions.

Aggie was basically all aloney on her owny (minus a little interaction with Duane) until she made friends with Lisa. Lisa has been an important influence in her life and she's been a good friend, all in all. Aggie isn't willing to lose her just because Lisa made a few mistakes.

Penny... honestly probably just wanted to smooth out the wrinkles to keep Aggie and Sara happy. She never seemed close to Lisa, but people important to her were.

We're social creatures. Very few of us will just outright ditch someone for making some mistakes, especially when the good outweighs the bad. It's just how we're built. Is that 100% true? No, but it's damn close.

[LadyObvious23]

As a supposed Lisa-hater can I speak up on how I view her? :/ Cuz I honestly don't hate her just somewhat dislike her actions at times.

I didn't think she publicly outed Sara though how she treated Katy-Ann when she talked to her the first time was just flat out too fucking rude.

Right now what is happening to Lisa is awful and I kinda don't think it's good for her to go out when she's upset and a bit angry. (I know it's silly but I'm a little scared at what it could lead to.) I think she should just talk to Sara about all that. Sara's her friend it wouldn't hurt to try to talk her feelings out in private.

[Adrishiana]

As it is, just because T. says that Penny, Aggie, and Sara were all okay with Lisa treating them like shit does not mean that I am unreasonable or, well, wrong because I don't think it's okay to treat your friends like shit. People are going to have a different opinion on essentially lying to get your way, and that's not a bad thing.

T didn't say they were okay with it. They were very clearly angry at first. They just forgave her later. That seems to be the part we're having trouble with. To some of us, it seems like Lisa shouldn't have been forgiven for some of the things she's done, and her friends certainly were upset with her at the time, but they valued the friendship too much to let go of it.

Forgiveness is great! It's just that seeing Lisa actually say, "Hey, sorry I lied to/manipulated you and treated you like shit when called on it, that was a crappy thing to do" would have been nice.

[Ameyal]

I got mentioned by name YAY!
In all seriousness, one of the reasons I dislike Lisa, is that up until the camera thing, she was never seen in the wrong, never apologized for anything she did(with good or bad intentions) and up until now, she never evolved as a person(yes, her fisrt appeareances were different, but once her personality developed, she never changed(or tried to) and started to feel more like a forced comic relief or worse, as a walking plot device without a story of her own(even the "shallow" Michelle got more than her). Sometimes she honestly feel like she had read the script ahead of time and slowly felt like a Boring invincible Hero. Her stunt with the camera came too late(and just to not: I sort of agree with her that they gave the boot to Stan too quickly, even if I don't agree with her method of proving her point)
Now, in Q,she seems to finally be changing bit by bit(at least I like how he started to act around Hank now that she seems to b e crushing on him, instead of the "I'm always right and therefore all my actions against him are justified", so here' hope she feels like a character from now on

[Valerie]

Forgiveness is great! It's just that seeing Lisa actually say, "Hey, sorry I lied to/manipulated you and treated you like shit when called on it, that was a crappy thing to do" would have been nice.

Lisa has apologized at least once or twice in the past. I'm too lazy to find it, though. >_>
It's also totally possible she said it off-panel. I mean, the last we saw of that fight was Lisa and Sara calling a truce and sneaking out, then it basically cut straight to Six Septembers Later. We have no idea what happened between those two points in time.
We could probably just ask, though. *to the questions thread*

[Alice Macher]

[I mean, the last we saw of that fight was Lisa and Sara calling a truce and sneaking out, then it basically cut straight to Six Septembers Later. We have no idea what happened between those two points in time.

That's the crux of it, really. More specifically, it cut from the sneaking out to Penny's and Aggie's fight - rage sex - almost-breakup, and then to Six Septembers Later. So within the narrative as T structured it, there was simply no opportunity for further discussion about The Stan Camera Affair to take place. (It certainly wouldn't have occurred in the immediate aftermath of Agenny's conversation, i.e. the point at which Aggie would've suddenly realized, "Whoa, my dad's gonna be home soon and we've trashed his study and we're naked from the waist down. Better fix both those things."

After their tidying up and dressing, Penny, I imagine, would've gone home to worry about the future of their relationship, about "Why didn't she say she loved me too?", and such. Not about "Jesus Christ, Lisa had better apologize about the Stan thing." Somehowwww.... I think that would've been the farthest thing from her mind. Same with Aggie, who would've also worried about their future together, about "Why can't she understand I don't want our time together to consist of fighting and one-upmanship?" Not about "Geez, I sure wish Lisa hadn't lied about the camera; she'd better apologize." That may be a priority for Adrishiana, but sorry, I just don't see it being a priority for two confused, vulnerable, near-heartbroken teenage girls who aren't sure whether their thing together is going to last. I don't see it at all.

I mean, one could well argue that T shouldn't have skipped ahead that much and tied up some loose ends, and sure, that would be a valid argument. But that's just not how the story structure went. So maybe...just accept it, the way I, for example, accepted that Agenny didn't end up staying together in high school, and that they may or may not get back together after "Now's when we find out"? Accept it, and move on?

[Adrishiana]

At what point have I said, "Aggie/Sara/Penny should have kicked Lisa's ass for lying to and manipulating them"?

Aggie, Sara, and Penny forgave Lisa for lying to and manipulating them? Great! But I don't think it's a bad thing that I don't think her attempt to manipulate her friends into liking her fuckbuddy instead of, say, asking them to reconsider their stance on them speaks well of Lisa's character, especially since Lisa has acted like a jerk on plenty of occasions since Q started. Now that she's finally starting to actually be WRONG about shit and admit that and, hey, even realize that other people matter, too, maybe her character will redeem itself somewhat.

In any case, I'm not arguing about it any further.