[16 Dec 11] The Myth of the American Sleepover

[Alice Macher]

I thought she was assuming Hank to be bi, if she's intentionally modeling this character after him. She originally thought his problem was with bisexuals.

Not sure about that. What Lisa said to Sara after the floor meeting was that his attitude changed once bisexuality was mentioned. But she then said that what she found out online was that he'd criticized the Lambda League--not just the bi people in it, but Lambda as a whole--on his Twitter, and that he'd requested a roommate change after his first roomie came out. So she assumed that Hank was against queer people generally, not just those identifying as bi.

[Freemage]

Is nobody else kinda concerned with the idea of Lisa fetischizing both the concentration camps & a guy she just met that may or may not be queer? I dunno, if somebody I had just met caught a whiff of my non-normative sexuality & wrote me into their romantic/erotic creative writing assignment, I would be a little put off.

The camps are, simply put, an iconic image in the human psyche--they're a testament to human darkness. Placing the story there isn't fetishizing them, unless she starts talking about the guards' tight-bottomed uniforms or... guh--nothing else I can even type into that thought would be something I want to read, so let's leave it there. Rather, the setting serves as a powerful contrast--placing a love-story within the camp is probably one of the most blatant "light within the darkness" images possible.

Now, Hank probably WOULD be rather... irked if he found out that Lisa had him in mind when she was writing the story, especially if the character is recognizable (please, Lisa, dear gods, do NOT name him "Hans" or a variation thereof, m'kay?). How he feels about her treatment of homosexuality in general will depend on how well she treats the issue--which, by previous comments, would likely be negative, since she doesn't have that same frame of reference that he has on the issue in the first place, and so yes, her story is probably going to be badly superficial, even if it's trying for depth.

[mindstalk]

Dachau, Auschwitz, Sobibor, Treblinka are probably the four most well known camps, although only the latter three were fully intended as Extermination Camps.

Together with Chełmno, Belzec and Majdanek. Those 6 camps were all in occupied Poland.

Dependent upon one's nationality, and familiarity with WW2, names like Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, Ravensbrück and Theresienstadt may also ring a bell.

Bolded the ones I've heard of. I think I heard of Buchenwald when some politician made an ass of themselves there. Not sure, though.

Jewish, so grew up with a fair bit of Holocaust awareness, though not necessarily deep detail. Saw Shoah as a kid, and read _For Those I Loved_. Loved hierarchies and systems, so got fascinated at one point by the sheer organization of the camps. If I'd seen anything showing the various triangles, I'd probably have memorized it.
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/20 ... tionalism/

As for the fic... the general existence of "real person fiction" and "hurt/comfort fic" bother me more.

[Kamino Neko]

So she assumed that Hank was against queer people generally, not just those identifying as bi.

In fact, if I'm remembering correctly (might not be), 'he's got a problem with bisexuals' was actually an idea introduced on the board to reconcile his reaction with the fact that he reads gay himself.

[Alice Macher]

I do remember that, yes.

[CEOIII]

As for the fic... the general existence of "real person fiction" and "hurt/comfort fic" bother me more.

I can understand real person fic being a little squicky, but comfort fic? "Patient develops feelings for their doctor/nurse/caregiver/etc" is a plot line that soap operas have beaten to death over the years.

[mindstalk]

As for the fic... the general existence of "real person fiction" and "hurt/comfort fic" bother me more.

I can understand real person fic being a little squicky, but comfort fic? "Patient develops feelings for their doctor/nurse/caregiver/etc" is a plot line that soap operas have beaten to death over the years.

It's more the 'hurt' part that rubs me wrong emotionally. Like when someone on IRC was talking about having Aggie really injured so Penny could take of her.

[Valerie]

As for the fic... the general existence of "real person fiction" and "hurt/comfort fic" bother me more.

I can understand real person fic being a little squicky, but comfort fic? "Patient develops feelings for their doctor/nurse/caregiver/etc" is a plot line that soap operas have beaten to death over the years.

It's more the 'hurt' part that rubs me wrong emotionally. Like when someone on IRC was talking about having Aggie really injured so Penny could take of her.

There's also just how intensely creepy the situation can be. If a person is in a position of authority over another person (like what CEOII mentions), and those two are having a relationship, there's a serious imbalance of power involved.

Alice and Kamino: You know, I think you're right. I must have misremembered.

[Adrishiana]

Is nobody else kinda concerned with the idea of Lisa fetischizing both the concentration camps & a guy she just met that may or may not be queer? I dunno, if somebody I had just met caught a whiff of my non-normative sexuality & wrote me into their romantic/erotic creative writing assignment, I would be a little put off.

If Lisa is fetishizing either or both, then yes, that's at the very least squicky.

I'm generally kind of grossed out because I just don't think Lisa yet has the necessary combination of talent and maturity to pull this off and it could very easily go very wrong in a great deal of very wrong ways, but I'd have to read it to say exactly how grossed out I am.

As for the fic... the general existence of "real person fiction" and "hurt/comfort fic" bother me more.

I can understand real person fic being a little squicky, but comfort fic? "Patient develops feelings for their doctor/nurse/caregiver/etc" is a plot line that soap operas have beaten to death over the years.

It's more the 'hurt' part that rubs me wrong emotionally. Like when someone on IRC was talking about having Aggie really injured so Penny could take of her.

There's also just how intensely creepy the situation can be. If a person is in a position of authority over another person (like what CEOII mentions), and those two are having a relationship, there's a serious imbalance of power involved.

One reason (among many) that romantic relationships with coworkers tend to be Frowned Upon, especially if they're on different management tiers.

[Freemage]

(So, I get home from work tonight, and discover that this post, which I typed up last night right before bed, never registered my attempt to click "Submit".)

1: Lisa's plot could be a magnificent piece.

2: I predict that it will not, in fact, be magnificent. It will be overwrought, or inappropriate, or just absurd, or all of the above.

3: This will not, in any way, prevent many of her peers, and possibly even her professor, from praising it for its "depth" and "courage" and so forth.

4: This will annoy Sara to no end, understandably.

Why do I predict this? Because it's college, and self-important tripe is very often the bread-and-butter of such environments.

[Alice Macher]

And now, as a result of Freemage's post, I remember I was going to ask T about Aggie's film. To the Revenge of Ask T Questions thread! *Ka-pwing*

[mindstalk]

I'm still bemused by anyone expecting Kwality out of a first-day in-class writing exercise.

[Alice Macher]

I'm still bemused by anyone expecting Kwality out of a first-day in-class writing exercise.

That might explain Sara's writing block. It could of course be simple difficulty in coming up with ideas. Or, she may have put pressure on herself to write something "literary" or "deep" or what have you. And as someone once said here, back during a discussion of Aggie's poetry (in "Headhunt," I think), the more you try to write something "big and important," the less likely you are to succeed in doing so, or indeed in writing anything at all in a particular sitting.

It's like the Zen parable (I'm telling this, from memory, from the cartoon book Zen Speaks) about the young man who sought out a master swordsman, wishing to become his student. "How long will it take me to learn the art of swordsmanship?" he asked.

"Seven months," said the master.

"Seven months? Look, it's really, really important for me to master swordsmanship, as in now. How long will it take, if I try very hard?"

"Seven years."

"First you said seven months," said the young man. "Now you're saying seven years? Look, I'm willing to pour all of myself into learning how to become a master swordsman. Tell me: how long will it take, if I try really, really hard?"

"In that case," said the master, "it will take seventy years."

[Hexr]

Is nobody else kinda concerned with the idea of Lisa fetischizing both the concentration camps & a guy she just met that may or may not be queer? I dunno, if somebody I had just met caught a whiff of my non-normative sexuality & wrote me into their romantic/erotic creative writing assignment, I would be a little put off.

A couple thoughts of this, some of this (well, maybe all of it) has been mentioned already.
1. I don't think she's fetishizing about them. Just using them for her writing.
2. I don't think she's writing Hank into it per se, more likely using him as inspiration.
3. Judging by how they started, it's highly unlikely Hank will see this piece of writing soon.
4. We do not even know if he's gay. Only thing we know is that he apparently knew a gay guy (that looks funny when it's written) who got murdered or driven to suicide. (There's also the slightly feminine look but that counts only if you want to believe in stereotypes.)
5. Even if he is, I doubt he would recognise himself if he read the piece. Maybe if he's an x-men fan and the character was named Henry.
6. The text more likely than not sucks. It is the first day of cre-wri and she's writing in class like a hurricane, it seems. Judging by past experiences, not a recipe for success.
7. I like listing things.
8. As I may have mentioned in passing, I am not a native English speaker. Does it show?

Like when someone on IRC was talking about having Aggie really injured so Penny could take of her.

Tangent! Is there still a P&A/QUILTBAG/Tea Room -centric IRC channel? Here's a pony reaction vid begging you to tell me. Just because I wanted to use that one.

It's like the Zen parable (I'm telling this, from memory, from the cartoon book Zen Speaks) about the young man who sought out a master swordsman, wishing to become his student. "How long will it take me to learn the art of swordsmanship?" he asked.

"Seven months," said the master.

"Seven months? Look, it's really, really important for me to master swordsmanship, as in now. How long will it take, if I try very hard?"

"Seven years."

"First you said seven months," said the young man. "Now you're saying seven years? Look, I'm willing to pour all of myself into learning how to become a master swordsman. Tell me: how long will it take, if I try really, really hard?"

"In that case," said the master, "it will take seventy years."

I really like this... parable? Yeah, that's all.

[SolitareLee]

More endless Lisa hate! Man, this is becoming a staple of my daily life. Is there anything wrong with the possibility that she might be writing it because she enjoys it? It's a Creative Writing class, no one's expecting Lord of the Rings. I'm pretty sure we can all safely say that Sara is exaggerating because she feels upset and a little jealous of how much Lisa has seemingly rapidly adapted to college life.

On the subject of Hank, in my opinion it would only be creepy if she actually /called/ the character Hank. I think every writer here would contest that you tend to model characters after people you know, or knew, even if just bits and pieces here and there. She obviously has a thing for troubled characters, and Hank is the most recent (and most real) "troubled" person that she's met. So if that's what she's going for, it makes sense to be thinking of him, or rather, her idea of him, as she writes. That's one non-creepy option, another would be the more hilarious "she thinks he's homophobic so she's writing him into gay fiction," which probably isn't the case since she seems to have decided he's not that bad. But would be funny.