5 Sept 11: Some other ideas

[Dogberry]

Bravo! T! And I'm still 100% sad that the strip is ending. As mentioned elsewhere, I have a strong attachment to these characters and I attribute that to your skill in telling their stories. I know where I hope things will end up, but I also know that they are yours and it has been your talent with them that allowed them to become so dear to me.

[lokisdottir]

HEY GUYS. DUANE HAS A HOT GIRLFRIEND. LOOKIT THE LITTLE STUD! MROW.

Should have been the point of her.

I can't help but think T. and Jason would have caught a lot less flack if she were a hot white chick rather than a hot black/Asian/IDon'tKnowWhatSheIsAndItScaresMeWahhh chick. More reason to go with whitebread or what you know rather than risk giving offense, I guess.

But doesn't it kind of make sense to have his long-term-enough-to-bring-to-the-reunion hot girlfriend be a muslim? You know...like him? Having her Mongolian(for example) makes sense. And since there is only a limited amount of space dedicated to this reunion(thank god, cause every panel is just begging for extended discussion), instead of showing a normal girl or showing her wearing a hajib(which would've stirred even more hate), they just went with the show-that-she's-not-your-average-whitechristianbelleviller as a detail. All's good.

Oh, I absolutely wasn't saying that Jason/T. should have changed a thing, and I applaud T.'s decision not to backtrack. I just find it ironic that oftentimes, the minute creators step off the beaten path they're weighed down with a bunch of grievances about offenses real and imagined. It almost looks like they're being encouraged to bring less diversity to their work, not more, hence the comment about how it's safer to go with a white chick. I didn't mean safer = better at all.

(By the way, what's a normal girl? I don't find anything particularly abnormal about Duate, other than the amount of ire she inspires on this board. The Mondrian dress, maybe?)

[jk9000]

The character design reminds me of Chin-Kee in American Born Chinese (https://lawarehouse.wikispaces.com/file ... hinkee.jpg), and that is NOT a good thing.

I'm really not seeing the similarity. Duane's date doesn't have the oversized ears and nose, or the buck teeth, and her dress is some kind of art design, but definitely Western. If we saw her walking or talking at all, I seriously doubt it'd be with a weird gait or bad accent. Some folk have pointed out that her silence could be taken as "subservient", but I don't know what she's suppose to be interjecting during this two-panel, couple-minute snippet of conversation between old friends. She could throw out something to the effect of "Oh, Duane and his letter-fetish!" at the end there, I guess, but that sentiment is just as effectively communicated by her cheerful, knowing smirk and the way she kind-of bobs forward in the last panel there.

Straight, black hair could be stereotypically Asian, but not too much more than Duane's hair is stereotypically Black. Again, the only point of sympathy I have with the inadvertently-racist crowd is the lines-as-eyes. Devoid of any other signifiers, though, it just seems like cartoony shorthand for narrow eyes. As others have pointed out, it's not a shorthand unique to Asian caricature, and it'd be a shame to treat as such.

[xoxi]

She looks Blasian to me. The only thing really weird is the lips...I don't know, I don't really see what people are so upset about.

I mean, look at KA/Jack's kid. With those freckles, he's obviously a ginger. Those beady little eyes means he has no soul. Is it a cruel affirmation that gingers do, in fact, have no soul? Because if so, I think somebody needs to get offended posthaste.

[Cheshire]

First, the good:

-Babyjack's smile face? Adorable.
-I thought he was running to hug Uncle Stan at first. But longer hair does look pretty good on Jack.
-Can graphic design really support a family of (soon-to-be) four? I'm not complaining, but I am a little surprised. Somehow I was under the (probably wrong) impression that it wasn't a particularly well-paying field.
-Looooooove Duane's suit. Perfect example of clothing showing growth in a character. The beard's not bad either.
-Mondrian dress. <3

And now, the unpleasant:

Put me in the "I know you guys didn't actually mean it that way, but the Duane's companion looks like a WWII-era Asian caricature." People draw stuff like this not intending any harm. It happens. But ignoring the protests of those who are harmed because some people are defending the drawings is where you're going wrong here. This isn't over a major storyline change like Cyndi and Charlotte. This is a one-shot background character who can either look like a "china doll" caricature or an actual human being. Just getting rid of the squint would make all the difference and actually have her look like the women you modeled her after. I guess the real question is, do you care so much about defending the original drawing that you're willing to alienate your fans? Again, not over Penny and Aggie getting together or Charlotte kidnapping Cyndi, but one drawing of one one-shot character?

It almost seems like T and Jason are being bullied into changing something of their own creation that the outside world should have no say about at all and that is the most angering part to me, so many are doing the "YOU BETTER REDRAW IT" poka.

See, I'm not mad at Jason or T, and I haven't seen anyone in this thread put a gun up to either of their heads and demand that they change it. This is feedback. You know, one of the most valuable things any creator can receive? Just because this feedback is "this drawing is problematic and here's why" instead of "OMG DUANEBEARD SQUEEEEE" does not mean that anybody is bullying T.

But then again, there is a general The Complainer Is Always Wrong feeling when it comes to the common populace and race, so comments like yours that paint the offended party as shrieking bullies shouldn't really surprise me.

And lastly:

Finding out that this is Yun Sung should have made me happy. I loved Minjung. But I can't quite swallow that the spirited free-thinker who expanded her mind in Korea grew up to be War Bride Barbie.

[lokisdottir]

And again, she looks like real women to me.

I just wanted to add, her smiling face reminds me of my best friend's (we're Korean). My friend has long, slanted eyes that I always envied, and thankfully she never had them "done" unlike a lot of other Asian women who get eyelid surgery to make their eyes rounder. (Nothing gross at the link, just before/after pictures.) Mystery Woman just looks natural and cute to me. Maybe the geisha lipstick a little weird, but that may be in fashion for her time and she seems the type to style herself the way she likes, not (gasp!) to give offense or fulfill a stereotype.

[Lia S]

I'm sorry I haven't had time to read the whole thread, so if this was all said before, please ignore me.

I interpreted her squint as being caused by smiling/laughing rather than by being stereotypically Asian. I did think her nose was oddly cartoonish until I noticed it's not one line but two - one for the nose and one for the wrinkle that is caused by her smile. I think the whole cartoon-Asian issue could be solved by making a few black nose pixels grey.

Besides, if she's really supposed to be a stereotype of an Asian woman, what are those big round things on her chest, hm?

Now look at her in the previous panel. The lady has no eyes! And all those other people! They have no faces! WTF is happening to them? EEEEEEEEK!
What's that you say? Old news? Oh, alright then.

Can graphic design really support a family of (soon-to-be) four? I'm not complaining, but I am a little surprised. Somehow I was under the (probably wrong) impression that it wasn't a particularly well-paying field.

It depends, both on ones self-marketing skill and on ones design skill. There's an awful lot of competition on those "everyone make us a free design and then we'll only pay the one we like a pittance" things (pro tip: don't participate in those), but if a publisher likes work you've done for them and want more in the same style, there's reasonable money to be made.
Also, the economy may be in much better shape in the P&Averse six years from now than it is in our world now. That helps a lot. If it isn't, I do think it isn't the best job for supporting a family, because of the unpredictable income.

[Yinello]

I can't help but think T. and Jason would have caught a lot less flack if she were a hot white chick rather than a hot black/Asian/IDon'tKnowWhatSheIsAndItScaresMeWahhh chick. More reason to go with whitebread or what you know rather than risk giving offense, I guess.

It's sad because it's so true.

I think people are reading too much into this. And it bothers me that these kind of issues can lead to general fear of drawing/writing about anything but caucasians. Because oh no she has a stereotypical feature there's possibly bad intent behind it let's be moody! <.< Never mind the fact that some real women actually do have those traits.

At the moment I'm really curious as to what the rest of the cast of P&A are doing. Also I'm sad the comic is ending. xD I'm gonna miss it so much.

[Samie_Seraphim]

Maybe in the third panel (though that wouldn't make sense, because Duane and Jack have visible eyes and are right next to her),

And they're the focus of the scene, she is not. But to follow that line of logic, Jack and Duane's brows are visible, as well as their eyes, so she's missing SOME facial feature that the boys have, and it doesn't make sense to assume it's the one Jason does draw 90% of the time (when he doesn't skip the face entirely), not the one he skips regularly for effect, or to define focus.

but the last panel shows both eye-lines and the eyebrows.

Because she's smiling. Quite brightly. Not a teeth-baring grin, but that would make the impression worse. (I actually smile much that way - I haven't liked to show my teeth since I was a kid and missing the front two in the top, so a very bright smile from me will have eyes closed, crinkled nose, and cheeks up, but lips together.)

Do you think that Jason drew her in a stereotypical looking way deliberately? Because this point doesn't work if you assume he didn't.

Did he make her look like a stereotypical depiction? Sure did. Is it likely that wasn't just a mistake based on following through the expression, but not thinking hard enough on the implications? Well, I can't dismiss it entirely, but from Jason's previous work, the chances are 'no'.

This.

I totally do squinty face when I'm smiling sometimes. Though for me it's less bright smile and more "I'm feeling totally awkward right now and I'm supposed to be smiling, so let's try it..."

I also stand with my hands behind my back, especially in a dress.

So while I admit it does look a little stereotypical, I didn't get too upset. It's only two panels so far.

[rockstep]

I've been reading this comic practically since it started, and while I'm more of a lurker on the message boards, I gotta say my piece. My opinions might be unpopular, but I feel like I need to get this all off my chest.

Given the way T and Jason have treated race issues in the past, I don't think they intended to offend...which is why I'm so surprised (and a bit disappointed) that T would brush off people's concerns so lightly. Jack Fairy's comments show exactly why this flirts with being a racial caricature -- the submissive pose, "china doll" hair, etc. all relate back to the negative stereotype of Asian women as sex objects. And I think it's telling that someone wearing a far more conservative dress (just with a crazier pattern) than Michelle is being compared to a prostitute, whereas Michelle's dress is slit up past her freaking crotch and apparently is A okay.

Also, the people who are saying, "Well if she's a stereotype, how come she has such big boobs?" Ugh, listen to yourself. Nobody's saying T and Jason INTENDED to create a racist caricature; the character just looks offensive to some of us. It doesn't have to be extreme to be problematic, just like you don't have to have a swastika tattooed on your forehead to be racist.

Put me in the "I know you guys didn't actually mean it that way, but the Duane's companion looks like a WWII-era Asian caricature." People draw stuff like this not intending any harm. It happens. But ignoring the protests of those who are harmed because some people are defending the drawings is where you're going wrong here. This isn't over a major storyline change like Cyndi and Charlotte. This is a one-shot background character who can either look like a "china doll" caricature or an actual human being. Just getting rid of the squint would make all the difference and actually have her look like the women you modeled her after. I guess the real question is, do you care so much about defending the original drawing that you're willing to alienate your fans? Again, not over Penny and Aggie getting together or Charlotte kidnapping Cyndi, but one drawing of one one-shot character?

I completely agree with Cheshire on this.

This whole thing is like the cherry on top for my feelings about the direction the comic has gone over the past few years. With regard to the art, I know Jason has given it his best shot, and his art is light years beyond anything I could produce. Yet the strip has never been quite the same to me since Gis left. I just continued out of stubbornness, and even though there are lots of later developments in the strip that have completely turned me off (Penny and Aggie getting together, for one), I'll see it through to the end.

Duane looks hot, though.

[magga_rae]

The one thing I am considering changing is the squint. Even though my first reaction to it was that it was adorable, I have to wonder if such a minor alteration would quiet the flapdoodle without making me feel like a sellout. Might change that. But I refuse to treat this as the Great Race Crisis of 2011, in any case.

I think the eyes were the biggest problem, for two reasons.
Firstly, I know Jason's general drawing style is a lot more cartoon-y than Gis' was, but at the same time, his style throughout his time at P&A has been based a lot on echoing a lot of her drawing style, a large part of this being the eyes. I think it's fair to say that part of the reason the whole issue of racial stereotyping came up was because the eyes on this character are so unlike any eyes we've ever seen on any character in P&A before, (even in renderings of fully Asian characters such as Sara's mother) that it was slightly jarring to see. Just looking across the whole of panel 4, the difference between Duane and Jack's eyes, and those of Duane's date, they honestly look like they were drawn by two different people. If the whole style of the comic's art up to this point had been more cartoon-y and caricaturesque then this might have been more acceptable to members of the forum, but the fact is, it wasn't, so that was why it came as something as a shock, with the potential to cause confusion and discomfort.
Secondly, the context of this strip really didn't work in T and Jason's favour, given that this is the first time the readers are seeing this character, and her face is only really rendered properly in the 4th panel. This is very likely just an issue of the features being exaggerated (namely the eyes being narrowed) to show that she's giggling or smiling or whatever, but the readers have no prior knowledge of this character and no other visual references to go on to be able to differentiate whether or not her features have just been exaggerated to show her facial expression, or if this is actually just how her face is meant to like (Which I have to admit would seem fairly strange to me, given how starkly different she does look from anyone else in the cast, and the fact that the photo T gave to show that there are real women with eyes that look like hers was of a woman laughing.)

While I think some people did overreact and perhaps read to many things into it, such as that she's being submissive, or even that she's a hired escort (Seriously, guys, WHERE did that come from?...Apart from possibly the gravity-defying balloon boobs, but don't let me get distracted by focusing too much on those... ), I do also think T's defence did come off as a wee bit too harsh on the people claiming an objection to the image. People shouldn't be made to feel like they're being irrational for having negative reactions to something like this, particularly as one of the first things so many people addressed in their posts was that none of them thought for a second that T or Jason were being intentionally racially insensitive, but that this image still has the potential to cause offence. I don't think it's because, like some people are saying, people are just more comfortable with just seeing caucasian characters ; I think it's because, like I said before, this comic has featured other Asian characters and not a single one of them has looked even close to this. Obviously T and Jason would get less flack if the date were just a caucasian girl, because if she were, she would have been drawn in a much more similar way to the other characters in the comic and there'd be no point to make. Nobody's getting angry at T or Jason, just pointing out that maybe some errors in judgement were made, and it would sit better with a lot of people if they could be altered, or at least acknowledged, as opposed to T's current insistence which seems to be that anyone who does object to this image is causing a 'flapoodle'.

T, change the drawing if you think it's the right thing to do and if you're doing it out of sensitivity towards the people who were actually offended by it. Or, even if you won't change it, maybe just show that you appreciate why some people were offended, regardless of whether or not you think they were just 'seeking to be offended'. Clearly some people saw something in this image that you didn't which struck a nerve with them, and they shouldn't be made to feel like that they're being difficult or awkward for that. This isn't about anyone thinking you're a 'sellout' who'll jump the moment the forum says jump. It's about handling a very sensitive issue. Don't change the image just because you want to 'quiet the flapoodle'. That devalues the whole point.

[SomeCanadianWeirdo]

This seems another case where a scene might work better if you're reading it as part of the archives instead of as an isolated strip. In that case you'd "flip the page" and see whatever her next facial expression is, and not take an extended focus on her features in this one.

[jk9000]

Put me in the "I know you guys didn't actually mean it that way, but the Duane's companion looks like a WWII-era Asian caricature." People draw stuff like this not intending any harm. It happens. But ignoring the protests of those who are harmed because some people are defending the drawings is where you're going wrong here. This isn't over a major storyline change like Cyndi and Charlotte. This is a one-shot background character who can either look like a "china doll" caricature or an actual human being. Just getting rid of the squint would make all the difference and actually have her look like the women you modeled her after. I guess the real question is, do you care so much about defending the original drawing that you're willing to alienate your fans? Again, not over Penny and Aggie getting together or Charlotte kidnapping Cyndi, but one drawing of one one-shot character?

There's two sides to that. On the one hand, yes, it totally happens that an artist can draw with no ill intent and accidentally create something offensive. In scenarios like that, it's better to acknowledge the misstep and apologize. To the other hand, it also happens that an artist creates something genuinely innocuous, and a portion of the audience reads into it scandal and insult that don't exist. In those cases, trying to fix what's not broken always ends up weakening the result. Is there any objective way to know if Duane's date's design is the former or latter?

I don't say that to belittle the feelings of you and others who are earnestly upset. As you say, it's honest feedback and worthy of being heard. But I don't think it's fair to claim that T is ignoring your protests-- he just disagrees. To him and me and others, those last two panels have a drawing of an actual human being in them already, so there's nothing to change. Every creator has to make a call for when feedback ought to incorporated, and when it's better to trust yourself (especially when there's conflicting feedback, as in this case). The question for that always ought to be, "Do I agree with the points being made?", not "Will this please/alienate the audience?"; it doesn't matter if it's a one-off side character or a major storyline.

I'm not saying you're wrong to be offended. Obviously I disagree, and I've outlined why I don't buy the caricature argument in an earlier post, but at the end of the day that's a separate argument. If T had been convinced by feedback and decided that the design needed to be amended, I'd still disagree, but I wouldn't want him to withhold changes for fear of confusing and alienating readers with a post-production edit.

[Kamino Neko]

the eyes on this character are so unlike any eyes we've ever seen on any character in P&A before

Not so much. Remember that we only see her eyes in the last panel, and that she's smiling in that panel. Now look at the woman Fred is looking at in this strip. Or Lisa in this one. Could probably find a half a dozen other examples of the ^_^ look, if I tried, but two serves the purpose of illustrating that this isn't the first time Jason's gone with that look.

Speaking of Lisa, THERE's a character who looks like she's walked in from another strip. (Not quite 'how the hell did Aunt Fritzi and Nancy come from the same pen?' level, but I'm guessing the girl's a walking cartoon, even in-universe.)

[sgtrock]

We don't even know if she's of asian descent or not.

Slanted/slitty eyes are actually the default for people in the whole world. Eskimos have it. A lot of the latino population has it, depending on what tribe or indigenous group their ancestors were before mixing with the spaniards or french or whatever.

eskimo
http://www.old-picture.com/indians/pict ... -Woman.jpg
mexican
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jackiew/4399678775/
native american
http://stockfresh.com/files/j/jamirae/m ... -woman.jpg

And they're all kind of different slanted eyes. There's no such thing as "asian eyes". If you notice, the chinese and japanese people have different eyes, for example.

Besides, she's making a FACE. The typical face of "man I'm bored, I don't know any of these people but I'm trying to be courteous here"

Just saying.

Heck, pick any random pic of Taylor Swift!

Honestly, I don't get this piling on. Duate reminds me of a couple of examples of manga characters, even, where exaggerated round eyes tend to dominate.

That aside, I will say that Duate reminds me a bit of a young Hmong-American woman I worked with for a while. Smiled almost exactly like Duate, came across as fairly mild mannered, even submissive, until someone did something she thought was wrong. I don't mean just 'wrong' in the sense of racism, or fraud, or even lying. If someone proposed a change to a project that she thought was off base, she became this unstoppable force of nature. Fun to watch, even if you were the one she was challenging.