24 Aug 11 We mated like tigers

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Re: Do tigers knock pencils off desks when they screw?

Postby Zanosuke Kurosaki » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:05 pm

bunnyThor wrote:
Zanosuke Kurosaki wrote:
Green_Moon wrote:Seriously, Aggie, grow the hell up!


Aggie is being grown up. She's telling Penny about her emotional needs.


No, if she was being grown up, she would be talking about as if it was something they could at least discuss, instead of presenting it as a reason that it's a foregone conclusion that they must break up . . . just like Sara did.

She's not saying, These are my needs. How do we address this?" She's saying "OMG I just realize that you suck so I'm dumping you LOL!"

She's making a unilateral, spur-of-the-moment decision in the midst of a big mood swing. She still loves Penny; her silence says that much. If she does, then she should be willing to work at it -- not just throw up her hands at the first decent-sized obstacle. That is not grown-up at all.


See Scrivener's words. S/he (sorry, I don't know and I refuse to assume gender on a forum until I get some firm confirmation) seems to have hit the nail pretty square on the head.
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Re: 24 Aug 11 We mated like tigers

Postby Zanosuke Kurosaki » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:06 pm

JerrBear wrote:
muucifer wrote:
JerrBear wrote:
Zanosuke Kurosaki wrote:
Green_Moon wrote:Seriously, Aggie, grow the hell up!


Aggie is being grown up. She's telling Penny about her emotional needs. What is *not* grown-up is when one completely suborns one's emotional needs just to make the other person satisfied. If it were to work between them as they are right now, one or the other would have to do that, because of how they both are and how they approach life. Penny looks at it all (or much of it) as a tiger to be tamed, and it *will* come to heel. Aggie doesn't want it all to be a constant struggle, she's saying so today.


^This^

And damnit... I logged on just to say what you're saying! I demand... A SHRUBBERY!


Not too big? And with a path down the middle for a two layer effect? Big task..hard to find shrubbers these days..

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


You shall have your shrubbery! *calls Home Depot - and is immediately put on hold* Rassum-frassum...
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Re: Do tigers knock pencils off desks when they screw?

Postby muucifer » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:07 pm

bunnyThor wrote:
Zanosuke Kurosaki wrote:
Green_Moon wrote:Seriously, Aggie, grow the hell up!


Aggie is being grown up. She's telling Penny about her emotional needs.


No, if she was being grown up, she would be talking about as if it was something they could at least discuss, instead of presenting it as a reason that it's a foregone conclusion that they must break up . . . just like Sara did.

She's not saying, These are my needs. How do we address this?" She's saying "OMG I just realize that you suck so I'm dumping you LOL!"

She's making a unilateral, spur-of-the-moment decision in the midst of a big mood swing. She still loves Penny; her silence says that much. If she does, then she should be willing to work at it -- not just throw up her hands at the first decent-sized obstacle. That is not grown-up at all.



This.. so hard.

Although I can see Aggie's point of view here, it would be far more adult to talk it out to see if there is some sort of a compromise or middle ground they can meet on. It's only been three months (I think?), and yeah sometimes you know it won't work, but you should never make that call in the middle of a deeply emotional roller coaster. Take some time, tell Penny you need to get your head sorted, not necessarily that it's over, just that you need to evaluate not only if Penny can meet her needs, but if she can meet Penny's. Then make the call.

Also...spell check. Please stop yelling at me...I'm not bad at spelling...I'm just Canadian..LOL
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Re: Do tigers knock pencils off desks when they screw?

Postby Scrivener » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:07 pm

bunnyThor wrote:
Zanosuke Kurosaki wrote:
Green_Moon wrote:Seriously, Aggie, grow the hell up!


Aggie is being grown up. She's telling Penny about her emotional needs.


No, if she was being grown up, she would be talking about as if it was something they could at least discuss, instead of presenting it as a reason that it's a foregone conclusion that they must break up . . . just like Sara did.

She's not saying, These are my needs. How do we address this?" She's saying "OMG I just realize that you suck so I'm dumping you LOL!"

She's making a unilateral, spur-of-the-moment decision in the midst of a big mood swing. She still loves Penny; her silence says that much. If she does, then she should be willing to work at it -- not just throw up her hands at the first decent-sized obstacle. That is not grown-up at all.


She's recognizing a fundamental difference between her nature and Penny's nature. Fundamental difference. Go back and look at their conversation post-Tigerfuck. Penny is practically on fire with excitement and satisfaction. Aggie is bewildered, uncomfortable and at a loss. If these were two adults who were well into a relationship living in the same city long term, sure, maybe they would work through it.

These are two high schoolers who have to make plans for college in the immediate future - that have *barely* had any kind of a relationship at all.

It isn't as if she's freaking out in a moment of shame.
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Re: Do tigers knock pencils off desks when they screw?

Postby Scrivener » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:08 pm

Zanosuke Kurosaki wrote:See Scrivener's words. S/he (sorry, I don't know and I refuse to assume gender on a forum until I get some firm confirmation) seems to have hit the nail pretty square on the head.


Good call. The appropriate pronoun would be "he." :D
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Re: 24 Aug 11 We mated like tigers

Postby muucifer » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:11 pm

Zanosuke Kurosaki wrote:
JerrBear wrote:
muucifer wrote:
JerrBear wrote:
Zanosuke Kurosaki wrote:
Green_Moon wrote:Seriously, Aggie, grow the hell up!


Aggie is being grown up. She's telling Penny about her emotional needs. What is *not* grown-up is when one completely suborns one's emotional needs just to make the other person satisfied. If it were to work between them as they are right now, one or the other would have to do that, because of how they both are and how they approach life. Penny looks at it all (or much of it) as a tiger to be tamed, and it *will* come to heel. Aggie doesn't want it all to be a constant struggle, she's saying so today.


^This^

And damnit... I logged on just to say what you're saying! I demand... A SHRUBBERY!


Not too big? And with a path down the middle for a two layer effect? Big task..hard to find shrubbers these days..

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


You shall have your shrubbery! *calls Home Depot - and is immediately put on hold* Rassum-frassum...


I'll give you a voucher, but only if you've appropriately Ni'd an old lady. *one time offer, no herring required.*
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Re: 24 Aug 11 We mated like tigers

Postby SniperCT » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:12 pm

What if it's 20/2020 at the end; but penny liberalized instead of aggie going more conservative?
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Re: 24 Aug 11 We mated like tigers

Postby bunnyThor » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:15 pm

Scrivener wrote:In turn, when it comes to love... as *I* have described it to people, I want a pillar. She calls it an oasis. Same idea. It's not that we want a relationship that is easy, boring or somehow without conflict whatsoever. We simply need and want a love that is less volatile - more supportive, more consistent. Less valleys AND less peaks. A welcoming, comforting kind of love... a love you can come home to at the end of the day and take refuge in.


Yeah, but that's a mature relationship--that is "mature" in the sense that the relationship has grown over time and most of the rough edges have been worn off. You don't get to start out that way. You have to work at it over time. They've been a couple for less than three months. They are still finding out things about each other and themselves. They are still discovering each other's boundaries and bad habits. That process goes on for years, no matter how compatible you are as a couple. Comfort, rapport, and trust have to be developed, bit by bit, like water drops forming a stalagmite.

Good relationships are like good boots. They start out stiff and awkward and they wear at you in uncomfortable places, but if you stick with them, they'll become exactly what you want and need.
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Re: 24 Aug 11 We mated like tigers

Postby SniperCT » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:18 pm

bunnyThor wrote:Good relationships are like good boots. They start out stiff and awkward and they wear at you in uncomfortable places, but if you stick with them, they'll become exactly what you want and need.
[/quote]

I love that expression.

What P&A are going through right now is going to be relationship defining. If they make it through this they'll be set.
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Re: Do tigers knock pencils off desks when they screw?

Postby sentora » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:20 pm

Scrivener wrote:
bunnyThor wrote:
Zanosuke Kurosaki wrote:
Green_Moon wrote:Seriously, Aggie, grow the hell up!


Aggie is being grown up. She's telling Penny about her emotional needs.


No, if she was being grown up, she would be talking about as if it was something they could at least discuss, instead of presenting it as a reason that it's a foregone conclusion that they must break up . . . just like Sara did.

She's not saying, These are my needs. How do we address this?" She's saying "OMG I just realize that you suck so I'm dumping you LOL!"

She's making a unilateral, spur-of-the-moment decision in the midst of a big mood swing. She still loves Penny; her silence says that much. If she does, then she should be willing to work at it -- not just throw up her hands at the first decent-sized obstacle. That is not grown-up at all.


She's recognizing a fundamental difference between her nature and Penny's nature. Fundamental difference. Go back and look at their conversation post-Tigerfuck. Penny is practically on fire with excitement and satisfaction. Aggie is bewildered, uncomfortable and at a loss. If these were two adults who were well into a relationship living in the same city long term, sure, maybe they would work through it.

These are two high schoolers who have to make plans for college in the immediate future - that have *barely* had any kind of a relationship at all.

It isn't as if she's freaking out in a moment of shame.


Seems that way though if you look at pre Tigerfuck Aggie and her aggression before this.

And fundamental differences aren't impossible to overcome, especially when you have a willing partner. I have to agree with Bunnythor here about Aggie not thinking clearly.
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Re: Do tigers knock pencils off desks when they screw?

Postby NobodySpecial » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:23 pm

sentora wrote:
Scrivener wrote:
bunnyThor wrote:
Zanosuke Kurosaki wrote:
Green_Moon wrote:Seriously, Aggie, grow the hell up!


Aggie is being grown up. She's telling Penny about her emotional needs.


No, if she was being grown up, she would be talking about as if it was something they could at least discuss, instead of presenting it as a reason that it's a foregone conclusion that they must break up . . . just like Sara did.

She's not saying, These are my needs. How do we address this?" She's saying "OMG I just realize that you suck so I'm dumping you LOL!"

She's making a unilateral, spur-of-the-moment decision in the midst of a big mood swing. She still loves Penny; her silence says that much. If she does, then she should be willing to work at it -- not just throw up her hands at the first decent-sized obstacle. That is not grown-up at all.


She's recognizing a fundamental difference between her nature and Penny's nature. Fundamental difference. Go back and look at their conversation post-Tigerfuck. Penny is practically on fire with excitement and satisfaction. Aggie is bewildered, uncomfortable and at a loss. If these were two adults who were well into a relationship living in the same city long term, sure, maybe they would work through it.

These are two high schoolers who have to make plans for college in the immediate future - that have *barely* had any kind of a relationship at all.

It isn't as if she's freaking out in a moment of shame.


Seems that way though if you look at pre Tigerfuck Aggie and her aggression before this.

And fundamental differences aren't impossible to overcome, especially when you have a willing partner. I have to agree with Bunnythor here about Aggie not thinking clearly.


..as we saw from Rob and Lynda. I think Penny is as influenced by that as Aggie is by her parents' and their version of what made their relationship so great. The difference is that Melody's death crystallized their marriage in one form, and she never got to see it possibly mature in other ways.
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Re: 24 Aug 11 We mated like tigers

Postby AngFdz » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:49 pm

Oops didn't see this thread!

All I said was 'aw aggs. ): " i think.

Feelin' bad for Penny right now. Anyway it's kinda sad that Aggie is acting like this is set in stone, like it's not something they can work on. But I don't know. Maybe she's right? Maybe Penny can't change.

Personally on Penny's side, though, having been dumped over a reason that was sort of like 'I just don't connect anymore'. Love is worth fighting for.
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Re: 24 Aug 11 We mated like tigers

Postby oenone » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:57 pm

bunnyThor wrote:
Good relationships are like good boots. They start out stiff and awkward and they wear at you in uncomfortable places, but if you stick with them, they'll become exactly what you want and need.



But what if you don't want boots in the first place?
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Re: 24 Aug 11 We mated like tigers

Postby Mr. Cales » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:09 pm

And.... game over. The end has come.

As for the recurring threads, here's the truth- relationships take work. These two poor kids have only had three months. That's not enough time. So this was doomed from the start.

And that was before adding in other things. Primarily, their parents. Nobody Special has hit the nail on the head about their parents, but it's also an opener to a more general point about their personalities. Aggie's biggest problem and greatest strength is her idealism. It makes her alternatively very driven and very naive; were this a fantasy story, Aggie would be the paladin character. If set in space, she'd be Doc McCoy. She's devoted, she's committed, she's unflinching, but her fascination with and eternal drive towards her perfect ideals makes her unable to see in gray; it is white, black, liberal, conservative, with her. As merely one example, she overreacted to Penny's accidental refusal of Duane by accusing her of being worse than Hitler. She was unable to think that Penny might not have sat with Duane for a reason like, say, she disliked Duane personally; for Aggie, rejection of Duane immediately leaps to racist.

Has Aggie grown up since then? Most definitely. But her core trait, her idealism, still rules her. As Penny and Aggie's relationship is not what Aggie wants or believes she wants- and for what it's worth, I cannot help but suspect that she is right in what she wants, that her need for an oasis is genuine- she is unable to think of the third path, that of "work on our problems, together." To her, it is either get rid of Penny or stay in a relationship you don't want. Those are her choices, because that's who Aggie is. Idealism has always held hands with extremism; they go together. It is from fire that light comes.

Penny, however, is more grounded. Penny is almost ruthlessly practical; she's good-hearted, but in a much less broad and much more defined sense than Aggie. She'd throw someone off a metaphorical cliff to save a friend, and doesn't mind giving aid when it won't hurt her to give it (as seen with the makeover attempt), but she's not going to go toss money at the poor simply because "somebody should". In a fantasy novel, she's the mercenary character, probably a straight-up warrior with dirty tricks up their sleeve; in a space setting, she's Spock. As an example, see her treatment of Sara after her coming-out. Penny saw no problem with lying about it, with passing as straight. It would be practical. She also was worried when Sara did her makeover, as she was afraid it would attract problematic attention. Her focus was never on that Sara was gay, or being true to herself- idealistic concerns- but with what other people would do if they found out and what Sara could do to hide from such trouble- practical concerns.

Has Penny grown up since then? Most definitely. But she is still practical at heart. Her concern for colleges is that it's coming up, and they have to deal with it. Aggie hadn't even considered it yet. Penny considers the options that Aggie won't, the range of grey, but that also hurts her. As she is now, Penny will never accept the value of Aggie's ideals, because Penny is too practical; she sees grey as best and sees no reason to consider white or black, either one.

To round out the metaphors, Aggie is a firestorm and Penny is a serpent. Aggie has periods of great and furious activity, but she also needs rest, and calm, and her own actions burn her sometimes, leave her with ashes. Penny, meanwhile, simply lives, experiencing life as it comes and trying to organize an optimal solution for herself and her loved ones, caring much less about anyone else and carrying plenty of venom if she has to bite. Aggie is a fundamental force of nature who cannot conceive of being anything else and Penny wants to see if she can tip the scales in her favor too much to wonder about ideals.

For what it's worth, I hope the coda isn't the 2020 Penny and Aggie. I saw that future. I would rather see another one. Personally, hoping for Penny/Sara. Penny and Sara would make a wonderful, tight-knit couple with much more in common than Penny and Aggie share. Aggie I am less certain about. Of all people there, the closest in terms of idealism is Charlotte of all people on the green earth, so that's clearly a no. Of pillars, the most stable member is taken by her boyfriend, and most other choices make no sense storyline-wise, except Lisa, who I'm waffling on. She might be what Aggie wants, but I feel she lacks a true enough empathy to be Aggie's rock.

In some ways, I suspect these last few strips are T's way of showing us that, despite our fanly years of fantasizing about it, our two favorite characters in the strip are not good romance options for each other.
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Re: 24 Aug 11 We mated like tigers

Postby muucifer » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:11 pm

oenone wrote:
bunnyThor wrote:
Good relationships are like good boots. They start out stiff and awkward and they wear at you in uncomfortable places, but if you stick with them, they'll become exactly what you want and need.



But what if you don't want boots in the first place?



Then I suggest a nice pair of well soled non grip sneakers. Although, the same idea applies. The first few runs in them will be a bit rough, but eventually they start to fit like a glove and you don't know what you would do without em. Or you know...fuzzy slippers are a good option..LOL

(Also really loving this saying.)
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