8/19/11 Don't know if I want this

[MudFlap33]

If you a BDSM type, you're not even batting an eye though.

Ok, you make some good points, but this is just not true. A good dom always seeks consent. Always. Consent is extremely important to those who engage in BDSM, and to imply that people who are into this would be ok with a lack of consent just isn't true. Back when that strip ran, yeah there were some people put off by the lack of verbal consent, but many people also noted that Aggie gave Penny plenty of chances to back out, and that after making the offer to give Penny the kind of sex she thought Penny wanted, Penny consented non-verbally by "struggling." I'd consider that Aggie implying she wants to experiment (remember, there was a part where she asked Penny if this is what she wanted) and Penny giving her okay.

Point being, Penny and Aggie are not experienced. They're playing with this, and learning as they go. Which is why they're skipping the parts that are so important--the parts where they talk about what they want, where they talk about what their boundaries are, where they have a safe word, etc.

Additionally, I have to point out that among fetishes, BDSM is one of the most common (don't forget there's a large degree of variance to what is considered BDSM). It's one that even a lot of vanilla people have tried, and one that, if you are kinky, you are probably into to some degree. That doesn't mean everybody has to be ok with it or its presentation in the comic (which, yes, is problematic for reasons we've both discussed), but as fetishes in fiction go, is a pretty "safe" one to choose. And this is probably very nit-picky, but it's also not the first time it's appeared in comic. Brandi was shown dominating Omar.

[Alice Macher]

After rather tame sex throughout the strip, suddenly veering straight into hardcore fetish sex is a hell of a whiplash. Let's be honest, BDSM is not a general audiences fetish and Penny and Aggie has not been a comic about the BDSM lifestyle. When it hasn't been present at all until the last two weeks, a lot of people feel they've gotten handed something they didn't sign up for.

Well, it's finally happened. Mere weeks before the comic ends, rebochan has posted something that I mostly agree with. It has been a rather abrupt shift in tone, hasn't it?

Contrast this with Fans, where T introduced the BDSM motif very early on, in Book One, with Ally. So anyone reading that comic from the beginning on to the present can't fairly claim T "suddenly" sprung it on them. Not so with P&A.

Edit: MudFlap33 has just pointed out that Brandi was shown getting dom with Omar in one panel (it was early on in "Pre-History"). Granted, although not only was that just a one-panel "background" bit, but it was also played entirely for laughs with the comically terrified Omar (who, oddly, had earlier dumped Samantha for not wanting to get freaky). Agenny's rough sexual play has been played entirely seriously--and graphically--and I think that's what makes it off-putting to some readers, whereas the Brandi/Omar bit didn't raise an eyebrow.

[Drascus]

Okay, regarding why people are discomforted by the BDSM angles in this comic - it's because BDSM is a fetish. To people who don't have that fetish, it's downright unappealing and to survivors of non-consensual sexual violence, it's psychologically troubling. I have friends in the BDSM lifestyle, so I don't really judge it so harshly, but it's still not my thing. But I think part of the problem in this comic is presentation. First off:

1) In the first encounter, Aggie never, ever asks for consent. She just jumps Penny. If you're a rape survivor, you're going to start having flashbacks about now. If you a BDSM type, you're not even batting an eye though.

This could have been easily solved by showing Aggie, even coyly, implying that she wanted to experiment with Penny and Penny giving the okay.

She did. She went up to her bedroom with Penny, and asked her to lie down on the bed. Do you think that Penny thought they were going to play scrabble? So A: Penny knew what they were going to do was at least make out, maybe sex. B: She did a ridiculously light pin, and when Penny said, "Now what?" Aggie said, "Now we struggle." I think that's pretty clear! Penny then struggled, instead of saying, "Um, no thanks, unpin me."
- Consent

2) The second encounter doesn't really imply that it should turn into sex at all. We've had a number of major plot points introduced back to back to back and not resolved, when all of a sudden they're having sex seemingly because there's a need for another sex scene because the comic's almost over. None of the previous arguments have actually been resolved.

3) After rather tame sex throughout the strip, suddenly veering straight into hardcore fetish sex is a hell of a whiplash. Let's be honest, BDSM is not a general audiences fetish and Penny and Aggie has not been a comic about the BDSM lifestyle. When it hasn't been present at all until the last two weeks, a lot of people feel they've gotten handed something they didn't sign up for.

2 - We obviously haven't had the same kinds of relationships. You may have been dating a Vulcan, if everything emotional and divisive got neatly taken care of before any passion could happen, especially at 17 years of age when people are much less than rational. It didn't have to turn into sex but it sure could have, especially after the roughhousing they've been doing so far.

3 - Fair point, I'm sure that's a problem for some folks. On the other hand, there's a big warning before every sex scene, and they don't really contribute a lot to the plot. People could just skip those comics and come back on the non-sex days if they want to know how everything shakes out.

[brasca]

... but given Aggie's vantage point and Penny's lack of concealment Aggie could always accuse her of being like Hitler on account of her grooming.

Are you saying Penny has a narrow mustache there?

That's what I'm inuending.

[Glishara]

2 - We obviously haven't had the same kinds of relationships. You may have been dating a Vulcan, if everything emotional and divisive got neatly taken care of before any passion could happen, especially at 17 years of age when people are much less than rational. It didn't have to turn into sex but it sure could have, especially after the roughhousing they've been doing so far.

I'm going to preface this by noting that I am into BDSM, and so my perspectives are heavily colored by my experiences there.

This does not, to me, read like a healthy BDSM relationship. This reads like a relationship that is balanced on a fuse of violence, where the violence finds an output in physical sex instead of straight abuse.

If Penny had kissed Aggie, and Aggie had responded by getting a fistful of hair, and Penny had dragged her sideways and they wound up on the floor with ripped clothes and little quivers of ecstasy, I'd be the first to say, "Hurrah!"

What happened instead is that they had an argument, both tried to make a point, Penny made it physical by shaking Aggie, as if to assert physical dominance, Aggie responded by stopping her, it turned into a fight, and they dragged the fight into angry sex instead of angry slapping and punching. But that doesn't stop the fact that it was a fight, and it was out of anger.

If Penny and Aggie weren't in a sexual relationship, I think that fight would have gone to violence anyway. If Aggie had said, "I am NOT okay with this here," the fight might not have remained physical, but there certainly would have been anger and conflict. What happens next time they fight, if Penny tries shaking Aggie and Aggie is not in the mood to turn it into sex? What happens if it starts going too far during the act? There is a real difference between two people who decide that they enjoy certain things that make them both happy and harm no one and two people who are poised on the edge of violence and manage to funnel it into violent sex. The first I have no problem with. The second is a recipe for disaster.

[Lia S]

... but given Aggie's vantage point and Penny's lack of concealment Aggie could always accuse her of being like Hitler on account of her grooming.

Are you saying Penny has a narrow mustache there?

That's what I'm inuending.

I don't mind her BDSM-ish behavior, but that's just unacceptable.

But seriously, and back to what everyone else is talking about... I looked at the previous page again and it seems it's Aggie who initiates the physical struggle by throwing Penny to the floor. (Yes, Penny did shake Aggie first, but we know that was exaggerated to make it visible on a page of a comic) At the end of that page both decide to take off their pants at the same moment.
Back to the current page - Aggie is shocked by what she started and what Penny went along with and enjoyed (and it's no surprise Penny did!).

Aggie is lucky her girlfriend is Penny and not someone who would dump her like nuclear waste into the ocean for putting the "fist" into "pacifist".

This surprises me, but I agree with Penny.

[AngFdz]

I'm just not sure I read Penny consciously manipulating them to get to this point. This seems to be something that surprised them both. Nor do I really see Aggie just going along with Penny if she was uncomfortable with the turn things were taking. This is the main reason why I think Aggie is probably also kinky--if she *really* hadn't liked where this was going, she wouldn't have bitten Penny, wouldn't have pulled down her own pants, and certainly wouldn't have continued on until either or both of them got off. This is Aggie we're talking about--she tends to be a pretty outspoken lady, especially with Penny. The running on autopilot theory only works if you enjoy where the autopilot is taking you--it's hard to get caught up that strongly in sex you don't enjoy. Especially if it involves giving or receiving pain. Non-kinky Aggie's likely reaction? "OWWW!" and that would've been the end of it.

I don't think angry sex necessarily means you have a kink for it. It just means you were pissed, and instead of hitting each other, you had sex.

Basically, what Glishara said here:

What happened instead is that they had an argument, both tried to make a point, Penny made it physical by shaking Aggie, as if to assert physical dominance, Aggie responded by stopping her, it turned into a fight, and they dragged the fight into angry sex instead of angry slapping and punching. But that doesn't stop the fact that it was a fight, and it was out of anger.

And Aggie looks scared by what happened, not because she's discovering a new kink she didn't know she had, but because she was so angry, and all they did was have sex, and nothing really got solved.

Also, whether Penny was doing it consciously or not, she was being manipulative. I mean, Aggie was trying to walk it off, and Penny went and confronted her. And even after things started calming down, with Penny asking Aggie to be in her future, Penny riled her up again with her whole "I need! You! To show! A little! SPINE!" thing. It was unnecessary. There was no reason they couldn't have had a long, lucid conversation. Penny went and drove it to into a fight. Aggie was responding to the aggression by being aggressive herself. And after they were done, Penny is like yes! this is exactly what I wanted from that fight!, which strikes me as if she was sort of aiming for that to happen.

I dunno, that's just my take on it anyway!

[Alice Macher]

@Glishara: Right on. Although I've always tried to be non-judgemental about others' sexual kinks or fetishes that don't personally do it for me, I must admit to confusion at a few posts, in this thread and the one for the previous comic, which in effect have said, "Hey, nothing wrong with what they're doing here; don't impose your vanilla values on this." Because as you say, Glishara, this didn't start out as lovemaking, nor even as fun casual sex. It started out as a fight, with genuine anger and ferocity. And as such, it could've gotten real ugly real fast, whether through intentional/semi-conscious injury or, as Kamino Neko put it in Wednesday's thread, purely by accident, the way they fell onto the desk.

If either of them had hit her head on a corner of the desk, they could've suffered permanent brain damage or worse. If either of them had fallen off the desk in just the "right" way, they could've fractured a limb, or worse. I'm no expert on BDSM but I do know the point of it is never to inflict actual harm on one's partner, whether on purpose or accidentally.

If for no other reason (and there are others), that is why they need to cut out this stupid, dangerous nonsense right now. If they're going to both stay together and make BDSM a part of their life, they need to discuss boundaries and comfort zones, and most importantly, never again engage in it when they're angry and arguing.

[maritza]

Where is people reading BDSM in this? First, there's no restraints. Bondage is out. Domination is also out: they don't have a clear role of dominant/submissive. THEY HAVE NEVER HAD ONE. It's the struggle they enjoy, not submitting to one another. There's no sadomasochism: they didn't get off on each other's pain. There's no discipline: no "punishments" or "rewards".

I would have sensed SOME domination play in their first, super awkward attempt at "struggling". And this did nothing for either one of them. Compare Penny's ho-hum face to today's, when she's practically one hair-grab from melting in a puddle.

This is simply rough sex. And Penny enjoyed it as hell. And, I'm guessing, Aggie did enjoy it physically, but she's either too afraid to admit it or she's mentally not willing to give in to such a thing.

There are lots of things you can do in the throes of passion and then afterwards you go eew, or you go okay, never doing that again, or make you feel vaguely humiliated.

If they do have a sexual incompatibility the time to find out is now. If they don't, then they have to learn to have sex how they want, but also play SAFE, both physically and emotionally.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[snowmansam]

...And, I'm guessing, Aggie did enjoy it physically, but she's either too afraid to admit it or she's mentally not willing to give in to such a thing.

This. Very much this, IMO.

[CEOIII]

I thought parents were supposed to take your toys away when all the good playing has been worn out of them -- like when you've chewed the doll's head so much she's now a choking hazard.

I've been trying to respond to this while staying in the metaphor, and I can't do it. So I'm just saying it outright: Giving us as readers the relationship the comic has been building to, and then taking that relationship away with mere weeks left to go in the comic is cruel. I am aware that nothing has actually ended yet, but after the Finster thing, I am not optimistic.

[griffon8]

Well, CEOIII, I don't think it's going to end with the sinking of the good ship Agenny. They will talk, they will probably hug, they may even say, 'I love you.' Just my opinion, but that's where I think it's going.

[mindstalk]

Some romances end in tragedy, not comedy...

[Alice Macher]

A romance "tragedy" would be if one or both lovers died, mindstalk. I don't think that's where T's going with this.

[oenone]

I've been trying to respond to this while staying in the metaphor, and I can't do it. So I'm just saying it outright: Giving us as readers the relationship the comic has been building to, and then taking that relationship away with mere weeks left to go in the comic is cruel. I am aware that nothing has actually ended yet, but after the Finster thing, I am not optimistic.

Hooray! Someone noticed my post!

I think this is one of those that's dependent on you liking Agenny as a couple -- since I don't, but think both girls are by, I'm pretty happy that the comic is ending with them both semi-out and dating a girl.