[8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

[Valerie]

Except Lisa then tried to lie and manipulate her friends into liking someone they don't like.

She knew that they wouldn't like who the camera came from and wanted to avoid drama, but the fact is that it got the job done. It looks like it was either this or they'd have to buy a camera themselves, and I don't see anyone buying that sort of thing as a one-time use. It was a "white" lie. Yeah, that's still a lie, but it's basically on the same level as the typical "No, you're not fat" when a friend is feeling insecure about her weight.

She "thought" that they might find out "later" that Stan was the camera's owner. She doesn't even finish that thought. She doesn't say, "and you'd automatically be friends with him." She could have meant something like "and you'll accept that I'm in a relationship with him." This might have been her attempt at telling them about it. For all we know, she could have planned on saying, "and Ceiling Cat will descend to the Earth and then we can haz cheezburgr."

[JackFairy]

You did notice that he backed off as soon as Penny said, "Stop!", right?

Are you SERIOUS? Are you seriously trying to argue that Stan is a good guy because he did not proceed further with his advances on Penny when she told him "no" (and while he was in a relationship)? Is that the measure you're using here? "He's better than a rapist, so he's a good guy?" That doesn't make him a good guy! That makes him a barely decent person!

And the whole but about "resisting temptation"... If Penny were half naked and coming on to him, he would get SOME credit for that, ok. Some, though not as much as you seem to think. Even teenage boys, if they love their girlfriends and are committed to them, are perfectly capable of not cheating. But Penny, although half naked, wasn't coming on to him. Penny was screaming at him to get out of her room. No matter how she was dressed, kissing a girl who does not even like you and wants you far far away is not a showcase of being a "good guy" who is "resisting temptation."

I mean, I'm sorry if I'm getting touchy here, but I take strong issues with people arguing that someone is "good" when they "resist" doing something that is the lowest benchmark for "decent human being." And especially when that something is "stopping sexual advances when told 'no'."

Well, I must admit that I'm cutting him some slack because the mutual physical attraction was so strong. And probably, to a guy with Stan's experience, pretty obvious.

If Penny was giving off "DON'T TOUCH ME YOU PERV" vibes and Stan tried to kiss her, I would've been pissed at Stan. As it was, Penny was doing more than a little 'checking out the merchandise' of her own.

She wasn't checking Stan out or giving ANY sort of encouragement when he kissed her. Her last words to him before he kissed her were "it's been... disgusting" as she was trying to get him to leave, and she wasn't even looking at him. I would say those are pretty clear "do not touch me" vibes. The fact that he turned out to be a fair kisser and gave Penny a brief moment of confusion after is not relevant. I'm not particularly pissed at Stan here--he slipped up, but he was sorry--but his actions here aren't an argument to his goodness whatsoever. Arguing that he's an awesome guy because after he kissed a girl who wasn't into him while dating her friend, he STOPPED when it was clear she didn't like it--that makes me pissed off.

Yes, occasionally, Stan has done the right thing. No one is saying he is utterly incapable of ever doing something good. It's just the good stuff is very far and in between and usually mixed in quite a lot of the selfish and a bit of the bad. Also, your example concerned Jack. Jack has always been the exception to Stan's selfishness--but he has been the ONLY exception. So for this argument, anything dealing with Jack (or Katy-Ann, where Stan was acting in the interests of Jack) does not count. Yes, Stan is a very good friend to Jack. But to no one else.

Thus your argument that he won't get his friends hurt "if he can help it" falls flat here. He won't let Jack get hurt. But with everyone else? As soon as "them getting hurt" gets in conflict of "what's in Stan's best interest," Stan's best interest wins. And as Maritza points out, it's not even that he makes any such decisions maliciously, it's that he is oblivious. He simply doesn't take the time to consider the consequences of his actions on others because he is so entirely self-focused. So yes, he's not evil and he doesn't set out to hurt people on purpose--but he doesn't think about others, and he sure as heck isn't a good person, either.

The thing is that they're demonizing him.

I think I'm most bugged by the fact that everyone here keeps saying, "Penny's not telling her friends who they can and can't hang out with" while Penny and Sara are clearly about to use Lisa as a scratching post when Lisa was just trying to help simply because she got the help from someone they don't like.

Lisa put them in the debt of someone they dislike. Who now wants a production credit--so she's making someone they dislike into a permanent part of THEIR project. If Lisa wanted to simply hang out with him, they wouldn't be thrilled about it but they wouldn't try to stop her or anything.

They're not demonizing him. They simply dislike him (with reason), and aren't thrilled that Lisa is FORCING them to have some kind of contact/connection to him when they want none.

I mean, it seems like the only other camera option they had was Sara's possible connections, and that clearly didn't happen. So maybe they should ease up a little.

Um, it didn't "not happen." Sara never bothered to pursue her connections because Lisa assured them she had it all covered.

[lokisdottir]

I agree disliking is neither right or wrong. However, I do think they're seeing ulterior motives where there is none, in the case of Stan. He just wants some credit, and as others have pointed out; he may not have known at first what the camera was for until later. Now did Lisa trick them into owing Stan? Not on purpose. As she said, she didn't expect him to ask for credit,

Lisa just admitted a motive, to make her friends owe Stan and like him as a result. She lied to her friends that the camera was from her dad, whom P&A&Co. were willing to owe a favor to, when in fact it was from Stan, whom they didn't want to associate with. She put them in a bind by tricking them in this way, because Stan asking for credit is a fully reasonable request which was very foreseeable even if she has the lame excuse that she thought--imagined--otherwise. It's pretty rich of her to accuse her friends of being wrong for not liking poor, misunderstood Stan under those circumstances. Especially when she turned out to be so wrong about Stan being the kind of guy to do something nice for nothing.

I'm not saying Lisa's a horrible person or malicious or anything; if she's horrible then I've been downright awful at times. Pavement on the road to hell, etc. The mistake endears her to me as a character and gives depth to someone who until now was largely a commentator who tended to stay above the fray. She may be ready to step in with friendly tricks and trippy life lessons at a moment's notice, but she turns out to have her own flaws and blind spots when her desires and feelings are on the line. I find it refreshing, and look forward to where this is going.

Unfortunately, there's not much else in the comic to compare him to except Karen. Who was worse than he was (current Karen may be different).

How about comparing to some baseline of integrity instead of to other characters? I don't get the whole "better than someone" game anyway. Having personal principles and trying to meet them is more meaningful to me. So let's look at Stan's principles or lack thereof.

I won't dispute that Stan has good impulses, and he tends to do the right thing when it doesn't interfere with his desires. Driving Helen home didn't cost him anything in terms of power, popularity, or poontang. (Sorry, love my alliterations too much.) Neither did checking up on Michelle. As for watching out for Jack and Katy-Ann, he asked Penny to help him watch out for them so he can be class president without any worries. Again, doesn't cost him anyhing, in fact it's mighty convenient for him. None of these were real tests, just showed that Stan isn't all bad--when it's convenient for him.

But when he actually has to choose between his desires and things like integrity or friendship, he's made the same choice every single time. He did so during the first and second elections, and did the same with Karen at first until her tactics became too much for him. And it wasn't like the defection was a sacrifice anyway--being Karen's advisor was more of a sideline for him and not his main thing. All he had to give up was his enmity for Penny, which again showed his good impulses but wasn't one of the things he really wanted.

Real or fictional, it's people's choices that define who they are. It's easy to stand for integrity or friendship when it's, well, easy, when you don't have to choose between doing right and getting what you want. If you go out of your way to destroy people, then you're a bad person; if you choose to stand for principles or the people around you when it's convenient but not otherwise, well, you're not terrible but you're just not committed to principles or people. By sacrifice I'm not saying Stan should have given his life for Brandi or anything--I'm pointing out that he has consistently shown his priorities. That's why Brandi very wisely got out, because relationships are miserable when priorities don't match. It's why the Pennies and the Aggies bailed on him, because they don't agree with his values, or some might say lack thereof.

I've seen arguments that all this is a tempest in a teapot, and things like high school relationships or class presidencies don't say anything about who Stan is. I'd like to turn that proposition around: if Stan prizes small prizes like being class president so highly over his integrity, why in the world would he value the bigger prized less when he goes out into the "real world?" Stan won't get magically better as an adult, not unless he goes in a different direction. Not unless he makes a different choice.

[Valerie]

The thing is that they're demonizing him.

I think I'm most bugged by the fact that everyone here keeps saying, "Penny's not telling her friends who they can and can't hang out with" while Penny and Sara are clearly about to use Lisa as a scratching post when Lisa was just trying to help simply because she got the help from someone they don't like.

Lisa put them in the debt of someone they dislike. Who now wants a production credit--so she's making someone they dislike into a permanent part of THEIR project. If Lisa wanted to simply hang out with him, they wouldn't be thrilled about it but they wouldn't try to stop her or anything.

They're not demonizing him. They simply dislike him (with reason), and aren't thrilled that Lisa is FORCING them to have some kind of contact/connection to him when they want none.

I mean, it seems like the only other camera option they had was Sara's possible connections, and that clearly didn't happen. So maybe they should ease up a little.

Um, it didn't "not happen." Sara never bothered to pursue her connections because Lisa assured them she had it all covered.

1. Lisa didn't know Stan would want credit. Maybe that was bad judgement or a misunderstanding on her part, but she did not set out to make them be in Stan's debt.
2. The conversation about cameras ended in an agreement that Sara would try to get someone, but that Lisa had them covered with a back-up. So either Sara did try and couldn't get it or she simply didn't care enough to try, in which case I'm not sure they can complain about where the camera came from.

[lokisdottir]

Thus your argument that he won't get his friends hurt "if he can help it" falls flat here. He won't let Jack get hurt. But with everyone else? As soon as "them getting hurt" gets in conflict of "what's in Stan's best interest," Stan's best interest wins.

Dammit JackFairy, you preempted me while I was writing my incredibly long-winded post! Yeah, what you said. Though I would argue that even Jack isn't much of an exception--I think the issue just never came up with them, which is understandable because Jack has been his wingman since forever.

[lokisdottir]

As long as I'm here...

1. Lisa didn't know Stan would want credit. Maybe that was bad judgement or a misunderstanding on her part, but she did not set out to make them be in Stan's debt.
2. The conversation about cameras ended in an agreement that Sara would try to get someone, but that Lisa had them covered with a back-up. So either Sara did try and couldn't get it or she simply didn't care enough to try, in which case I'm not sure they can complain about where the camera came from.

1. Lisa lied to put her friends in the situation where Stan can reasonably get credit. Even if Stan didn't want credit and the P&As might have taken the camera on that condition (which I doubt), they didn't get to make that decision because her deception took away the choice.

2. If they had known who the real lender was, they may well have tried harder. They didn't have that incentive if it was Lisa's dad. Again, they were deprived of the chance to make that judgment for themselves.

[Adrishiana]

1. Lisa didn't know Stan would want credit. Maybe that was bad judgement or a misunderstanding on her part, but she did not set out to make them be in Stan's debt.
2. The conversation about cameras ended in an agreement that Sara would try to get someone, but that Lisa had them covered with a back-up. So either Sara did try and couldn't get it or she simply didn't care enough to try, in which case I'm not sure they can complain about where the camera came from.

1. And? The drunk driver that killed Aggie's mom probably didn't set out to do so. Sometimes it doesn't matter what you meant to do, what matters is what you actually did.

Obviously, vehicular manslaughter because you selfishly decided the lives and property of everyone else on the road were less important than your desire not to call a cab and merely lying to your friends to manipulate them into thinking well of your fuckbuddy (let's not lie to ourselves, that was almost certainly Lisa's goal) are not nearly on the same level, but Lisa had options here. She chose not to be up front once it became clear that yes, Stan was going to do what Stan generally does and look out for his own advantage.

[maritza]

You know what ocurred to me? It's not only that they hate Stan. It's that after hand-painting FIVE HUNDRED logos, Stan's going to be on the credits as "assistant producer".

You know what, I'd say no. I'd flatly say no.

[JackFairy]

1. Lisa lied to put her friends in the situation where Stan can reasonably get credit. Even if Stan didn't want credit and the P&As might have taken the camera on that condition (which I doubt), they didn't get to make that decision because her deception took away the choice.

2. If they had known who the real lender was, they may well have tried harder. They didn't have that incentive if it was Lisa's dad. Again, they were deprived of the chance to make that judgment for themselves.

Exactly. The "debt" in question isn't that they now owe Stan credit. It's that they owe Stan, period. Even if he hadn't asked for credit (which was pretty clear he would, he's Stan and he doesn't change, that's the point!) they would still "owe" him now.

And btw, thanks lokisdottir for making your argument much more calmly and reasonably than I made mine. Yes, Stan isn't actively evil, and he won't go out of his way to hurt anyone--but he also won't go out of his way to keep others from getting hurt, not when he has to sacrifice any of his own wants or wishes. And that is damning enough.

[Arky]

Sorry, but the whole "but he did nothing to Brandi" is simply not true.

Stan treated Brandi like she was nothing to him. He knew such a thing would hurt Brandi. Yeah, he was setup... but he was setup because Cyndi knows him, and knew he'd totally sacrifice that pawn called Brandi. She knew that he would never stand up for Brandi. Brandi was not worth it to him.

If there was ever a single sign in the strip that Brandi wanted their relationship to be public, I'd agree with you, but to me it seemed like Stan not mentioning his relationship with Brandi was as much to cover for Brandi as to cover for himself. There's been a lot of people in this thread basically saying "Brandi dumped Stan, what did Stan ever do to her?", and for good cause. This feels like something where the intent didn't come through properly in the writing. I've kind of picked up on the intent since from some things T has said, and from what you've said and so on but when I read those strips I nearly felt bad for Stan because, like, if Brandi wanted their relationship to be public and wanted Stan to admit it in front of the whole school, why not ask him and give him the chance to do so? I felt like he got slammed for doing something he thought for good reason Brandi would want him to do. And I like I said, I really disliked Stan and felt they let him off way too easy for Michelle (and had no idea why Brandi hooking up with Stan in this situation wasn't being treated as a major betrayal of Michelle), so it's not like I was predisposed to feel bad for Stan.

But you contrast how they treat him after Michelle and the Popsicle War, and how they treat him after Brandi, it's way inconsistent. It just bugs me. It's a writing problem, not a character problem.

[BMPDynamite]

Hi there. Lurker-turned-poster. Interesting how many of those seem to be popping up.

Anyways. I'm just surprised nobody has yet brought up the reason Stan graduated from annoyance at Penny to flat-out hatred of her. The reason is very simple: he briefly blamed her for what happened to Rich. He matured a little because I think he started to realize that that was mostly his regret for not being able to protect someone he cared about. He and Penny then worked together for Shelly's sake more than anything, and she saw the side of him that isn't focused on success and people-pleasing, but on the people he truly cares for. The human side, if you will. This side shows up again in a few other places, and I think the latter shows at least a GLIMPSE of why he's so driven to succeed.

What happened with Brandi was something that broke the heart of a close girlfriend, and though he was set up by Cyndi, who knew his winning tactics and personality, and somehow his relationship status, it was a tipping point for Penny. She'd had no real reason to like Stan other than being one of the people who helped her get through to Michelle. He's not a horrible person, just a selfish one who, like all of the cast, still needs to mature. I don't hate Stan, and think he's redeemable. I even think he and Lisa are a cute couple. But he shouldn't have asked for a credit (unless Lis lied to HIM about who was making the video), and Lisa shouldn't have tried to trick her friends into forgiving someone when they weren't ready yet.

Honestly, I think Brandi's quote here sums it up nicely.

You know what ocurred to me? It's not only that they hate Stan. It's that after hand-painting FIVE HUNDRED logos, Stan's going to be on the credits as "assistant producer".

You know what, I'd say no. I'd flatly say no.

... Good point, there.

[adamiani]

First panel... EYES OF DOOOOOOOOM...

And Sara's getting in on the righteous(??) indignation too, it seems.

Being absolutely fair, maybe the worst thing Stan has done is dumped two of their closest friends, at least one under false pretenses.

Two?
Last I checked Brandi dumped him, on some pretty arbitrary grounds that suggested that she didn't really value their relationship to begin with.

Now hold on a sec, I'm kind of on the defending-Stan side here, but I'm little bothered by this.

She didn't want to be second to his pride. No one should have to be second to their SO's pride. That's ridiculous. She loved him, possibly still does, but she had to take herself out of what might have turned into a bad situation. That doesn't mean she didn't value their relationship. She just saw that they had different ideas about priorities and jumped ship. There's nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't make her feelings invalid.

Yeah, but...

All he said was "I've never told anyone I was in a relationship when I wasn't," which was true, and then exchanged an innuendo with Cyndi which would have been flirty if the circumstances didn't obviously prohibit flirtation-- downgrading them to barbs. It's spun as him putting his pride first, but... really, I think she blew it completely out of proportion.

[Alice Macher]

They don't have to like him, they don't have to associate with him, they don't even have to look in his direction when he walks past. The thing is that they're demonizing him. He might not be the best guy, he might do a lot of things that feel sleazy, but he's not completely bad. We always want to think the worst of people who have hurt us, because it helps us to stay angry at them, but even bad people tend to have some good qualities.

I think I'm most bugged by the fact that everyone here keeps saying, "Penny's not telling her friends who they can and can't hang out with" while Penny and Sara are clearly about to use Lisa as a scratching post when Lisa was just trying to help simply because she got the help from someone they don't like.

I mean, it seems like the only other camera option they had was Sara's possible connections, and that clearly didn't happen. So maybe they should ease up a little.

This.

This this this.

This with sprinkles on top.

THIS.

[Davidj]

I think Lisa's gonna whip out the "HE'S A CHANGED MAN!" sort of argument. Bonus points if she credits her vagina with changing him, however unlike her to say that is.

That's not what "It's not fair" is a lead into . I think Lisa think's it's not fair that Brandi got slack she isn't getting.

[Adrishiana]

I think Lisa's gonna whip out the "HE'S A CHANGED MAN!" sort of argument. Bonus points if she credits her vagina with changing him, however unlike her to say that is.

That's not what "It's not fair" is a lead into . I think Lisa think's it's not fair that Brandi got slack she isn't getting.

They don't even know Lisa's fooling around with/dating him yet.