sgtrock wrote:You did notice that he backed off as soon as Penny said, "Stop!", right?
Are you SERIOUS? Are you seriously trying to argue that Stan is a good guy because he did not proceed further with his advances on Penny when she told him "no" (and while he was in a relationship)? Is that the measure you're using here? "He's better than a rapist, so he's a good guy?" That doesn't make him a good guy! That makes him a barely decent person
And the whole but about "resisting temptation"... If Penny were half naked and coming on to him, he would get SOME credit for that, ok. Some, though not as much as you seem to think. Even teenage boys, if they love their girlfriends and are committed to them, are perfectly capable of not cheating. But Penny, although half naked, wasn't coming on to him. Penny was screaming at him to get out of her room. No matter how she was dressed, kissing a girl who does not even like you and wants you far far away is not a showcase of being a "good guy" who is "resisting temptation."
I mean, I'm sorry if I'm getting touchy here, but I take strong issues with people arguing that someone is "good" when they "resist" doing something that is the lowest benchmark for "decent human being." And especially when that something is "stopping sexual advances when told 'no'."
sgtrock wrote:Well, I must admit that I'm cutting him some slack because the mutual physical attraction was so strong. And probably, to a guy with Stan's experience, pretty obvious.
If Penny was giving off "DON'T TOUCH ME YOU PERV" vibes and Stan tried to kiss her, I would've been pissed at Stan. As it was, Penny was doing more than a little 'checking out the merchandise' of her own.
She wasn't checking Stan out or giving ANY sort of encouragement when he kissed her. Her last words to him before he kissed her were "it's been... disgusting" as she was trying to get him to leave, and she wasn't even looking at him. I would say those are pretty clear "do not touch me" vibes. The fact that he turned out to be a fair kisser and gave Penny a brief moment of confusion after is not relevant. I'm not particularly pissed at Stan here--he slipped up, but he was sorry--but his actions here aren't an argument to his goodness whatsoever. Arguing that he's an awesome guy because after he kissed a girl who wasn't into him while dating her friend, he STOPPED when it was clear she didn't like it--that makes me pissed off.
, Stan has done the right thing. No one is saying he is utterly incapable of ever doing something good. It's just the good stuff is very far and in between and usually mixed in quite a lot of the selfish and a bit of the bad. Also, your example concerned Jack. Jack has always been the exception to Stan's selfishness--but he has been the ONLY exception. So for this argument, anything dealing with Jack (or Katy-Ann, where Stan was acting in the interests of Jack) does not count. Yes, Stan is a very good friend to Jack. But to no one else.
Thus your argument that he won't get his friends hurt "if he can help it" falls flat here. He won't let Jack
get hurt. But with everyone else? As soon as "them getting hurt" gets in conflict of "what's in Stan's best interest," Stan's best interest wins. And as Maritza points out, it's not even that he makes any such decisions maliciously, it's that he is oblivious
. He simply doesn't take the time to consider the consequences of his actions on others because he is so entirely self-focused. So yes, he's not evil and he doesn't set out to hurt people on purpose--but he doesn't think about others, and he sure as heck isn't a good person, either.
Valerie wrote:The thing is that they're demonizing him.
I think I'm most bugged by the fact that everyone here keeps saying, "Penny's not telling her friends who they can and can't hang out with" while Penny and Sara are clearly about to use Lisa as a scratching post when Lisa was just trying to help simply because she got the help from someone they don't like.
Lisa put them in the debt
of someone they dislike. Who now wants a production credit--so she's making someone they dislike into a permanent part of THEIR project. If Lisa wanted to simply hang out with him, they wouldn't be thrilled about it but they wouldn't try to stop her or anything.
They're not demonizing him. They simply dislike him (with reason), and aren't thrilled that Lisa is FORCING them to have some kind of contact/connection to him when they want none.
Valerie wrote:I mean, it seems like the only other camera option they had was Sara's possible connections, and that clearly didn't happen. So maybe they should ease up a little.
Um, it didn't "not happen." Sara never bothered to pursue her connections because Lisa assured them she had it all covered.