[8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

[greenglowinggoo]

3: Brandi. This is probably the most damning--he screwed up. And Brandi is justifiably pissed about it, and he doesn't deserve her back. And I get Penny being mad about it--but her reaction comes across as uneven and slightly bizarre.

How is it uneven? It's not like her reaction is just about the Brandi thing. Even if she was able to tolerate him during the popsicle war, each new act of douchebaggery brings all past ones right back to the surface. So her reaction now is as much about Rich and Michelle as it is about Brandi.

[adamiani]

3: Brandi. This is probably the most damning--he screwed up. And Brandi is justifiably pissed about it, and he doesn't deserve her back. And I get Penny being mad about it--but her reaction comes across as uneven and slightly bizarre.

How is it uneven? It's not like her reaction is just about the Brandi thing. Even if she was able to tolerate him during the popsicle war, each new act of douchebaggery brings all past ones right back to the surface. So her reaction now is as much about Rich and Michelle as it is about Brandi.

Pfeh. It's about him showing up in her bedroom, shirtless, and making her "pop a girl-boner."

[maritza]

Really, if I had the time, I could make an awesome montage of Stan's douchebaggery and dickery and put it up.

Starting, for example, with him trying to stick his hand under Karen's skirt (he was still Michelle's boyfriend) while suggesting Karen that it'd be easier for him if Michelle broke with him for cheating on her with Karen.

Isn't that right, Mr. "If They Don't Want to Waste Their Virtue I Don't Want to Waste my Time"?

[sun tzu]

0: The Election. A lot of folks took this one to heart right away. I've seen very few people who hated Stan after the election storyline change their mind.

*raises hand* I utterly loathed Stan by the end of the original election arc. I had forgiven him by the end of the Popsicle War.


Now...Honestly, I'm with Lisa here. I've never felt the hatred Penny&co have felt toward Stan following "Mister Smiles" was justified.
Yeah, he wouldn't admit to being with Brandi when Cyndi caught him off his guard in public. That's reason enough to dump him, sure. That doesn't make him the scum of the Earth. He's been the scum of the Earth, but he's been making a good-faith effort to do better.
As for the Michelle thing, he's shown remorse enough for that. (And again, his only real crime here was trying to sabotage her friendship with Penny out of pettiness. He never "led her on" - he just got stuck in a relationship he didn't want and didn't know how to break it off, much like Penny with Duane.)
So, yeah. Lisa has earned some righteous indignation here.

[JackFairy]

Really, if I had the time, I could make an awesome montage of Stan's douchebaggery and dickery and put it up.

Starting, for example, with him trying to stick his hand under Karen's skirt (he was still Michelle's boyfriend) while suggesting Karen that it'd be easier for him if Michelle broke with him for cheating on her with Karen.

Isn't that right, Mr. "If They Don't Want to Waste Their Virtue I Don't Want to Waste my Time"?

Oh man, I forgot about that! That is a classic example of Stan

a) showing that he's always thinking of what HE can get out of any situation
b) not really thinking of other people, or caring if they get hurt (Michelle, Marshall) so long as it's easier on him.

And of course he's exhibiting the same behavior here (part A) in wanting a production credit where Lisa thought she could show him just "doing a nice thing."

And he exhibited part B with Brandi, who he supposedly cared about. Even after second chances, he goes back to these behavior patterns over and over.

That's VERY good reason not to be friends with him. As someone else said, the Pennies and Aggies aren't disrespecting Stan, bullying him or trying to ruin his life--they just don't want to associate with him, and for good reason.

Hell, I feel like if Lisa stays with him much longer, soon enough he'll sell her out in some way too. I don't know why she thinks any different. There has so far not been a relationship in his life that we are aware of that has not ended badly.

[Doc Harleen]

Anyway, I've always thought that Michelle's always been unfair about the Stan thing. Like NobodySpecial said, he just broke up with her. He didn't cause her issues or do anything Cyndi-like; he just couldn't give her the relationship she wanted.

Except he did throw in that little aside about not liking her friendship with Penny, which may or may not have contributed to her pulling away when she needed support most. It was still her choice to do so, and I don't know that it merits permanent blackballing (especially given how much he clearly regretted what followed), but it's not a point in his favor.

ETA: Um, in other words, what maritza said.

Fair point. Again, contextually, it was back when Stan and Penny had pretty mutual disgust for each other. I guess I feel like, as you said, it doesn't necessarily merit permanent blackballing, but maybe he's just pissed people off one too many times at this point.

[JackFairy]

He never "led her on" - he just got stuck in a relationship he didn't want and didn't know how to break it off, much like Penny with Duane.)
So, yeah. Lisa has earned some righteous indignation here.

Penny never tried to cheat on Duane.

Penny put in a good-faith effort to like Duane better while she was with him. She WANTED to want him more. She did not go around complaining how much she wished to be rid of him.

Penny was honest with Duane when she broke it off, and she broke it off as soon as she saw there really was no future.

Penny didn't throw in any totally unnecessary and damaging insinuations at Duane when she broke up with him.

And Lisa's indignation is groundless because P&A aren't "mistreating" Stan--they just don't want to be around him. They have zero obligation to be friends with him.

P.S. Penny and Stan had "mutual disgust," but Stan started it. Penny's dislike of him was just the natural reaction to his blatant and totally baseless hatred of her.

[Doc Harleen]

Because I feel like being evil...

If Penny, Aggie and Sara are this angry with Lisa just for maintaining enough contact with Stan to borrow his camera, how will they react if/when they learn she's been sleeping with him?

Ooooh! Best post in the thread.

[dataweaver]

To be fair, Aggie hasn't expressed anger; only concern. The anger has been coming from the Pennies. Again, I'm less interested in the merits of the arguments concerning Stan than I am with the dynamics of what's happening right now; and what I see happening is this: Lisa is falling for Stan, and is sticking up for him; this is turning Penny and Sara against Lisa. Aggie is watching Penny and Sara gang up on Lisa: the tone of their comments is highly confrontational. I predict that Aggie's going to end up coming to Lisa's defense, and that this will lead to a Penny/Aggie confrontation.

[Adrishiana]

Problem is, it's not really about whether or not Sara, Penny, and Aggie are wrong to feel the way they do about Stan. The issue at hand is that Lisa decided for them that they are wrong and tried to change their feelings - once it became clear that, no, really, Stan still probably wouldn't help an old lady cross the street if there weren't a camera crew on hand - via lies and manipulation, while simultaneously putting Aggie in the debt of someone she doesn't particularly care to be in debt to.

[Alice Macher]

Lisa is falling for Stan, and is sticking up for him

Lisa empathizing with Stan, and feeling that he was unfairly cut out of the group, isn't a new development, though. It goes back a few months to Penny's party. So while it's possible Lisa is falling for Stan, I don't think her concern over the ethics of the situation is evidence of it.

Me, I'm hoping they stay just friends, with or without benefits. While I don't hate Stan, he simply isn't a good choice for Lisa's first serious relationship. Also, the "Above all, do not fall in love with Stan...Oops! looks like I did" plot has been done twice already. It'd be getting tired if it happened to Lisa too. That, and as others have said, not everyone in the cast needs to be paired up before the comic ends. We have Jacky-Ann good to go, Agenny probably (I'd say at this point) going to make it, and possibly Duane getting with Michelle. That's fine for a comic that has less than two months to go.

[sgtrock]

OK, maybe it's because I'm a guy who is, admittedly, more than a little insensitive to other people's feelings. It's a character trait I'm not too proud of and one that has gotten me into trouble more than once. Still, I think the whole "Let's Hate Stan!" thing is more than a little out of line.

For example, Stan had the guts to go to Penny to tell her what was going on with Michelle after he figured out what Helen & Co. were up to. Then Stan and Brandi showed up at Michelle's door less ten minutes after Penny and Sara. And why were they late? Because they had to take care of Helen and Jack first after the party. Those are most definitely NOT the actions of a guy who always puts himself first.

Second, I've been backwards and forwards through the second election debate and I still can't see why anyone other than Brandi would be all that pissed at Stan. Brandi's name never comes up during the debate, for one, so it's not like he's smearing her good name.

For another, if you read it as a fast paced exchange of quips between Stan and Cyndi where Stan thinks they're just trying to one-up each other, it seems pretty obvious to me that Cyndi set him up. You'd think that Aggie, who sees it for what it is would cut Stan at least a little slack. If Aggie can see it, then you'd think Penny would, too. She's the more socially astute of the pair, after all.

Will Stan look out for number one? Yes. Will Stan let his friends down because of it? Not if he can help it. If anything, he goes out of his way to back his friends up when he can. There's a strip or two (that unfortunately I can't find) where he goes out of his way to enlist Penny's aid covering KA and Jack while he goes after the election. Again, you'd think Penny would remember that and cut him at least a little slack.

Or is the whole concept of Christian forgiveness too foreign these days?

Sigh. What do I know about teenage girls? I'm helping raise 3 of 'em and I still don't have a clue how they think!

P.S. Just out of curiosity, why does the archive page stop on Chapter 45?

[Adrishiana]

Or is the whole concept of Christian forgiveness too foreign these days?

How are we defining "forgive"? "Forgive" does not mean "like." Forgive does not mean "want to spend time around."

[Freemage]

Lisa is falling for Stan, and is sticking up for him

Lisa empathizing with Stan, and feeling that he was unfairly cut out of the group, isn't a new development, though. It goes back a few months to Penny's party. So while it's possible Lisa is falling for Stan, I don't think her concern over the ethics of the situation is evidence of it.

Me, I'm hoping they stay just friends, with or without benefits. While I don't hate Stan, he simply isn't a good choice for Lisa's first serious relationship. Also, the "Above all, do not fall in love with Stan...Oops! looks like I did" plot has been done twice already. It'd be getting tired if it happened to Lisa too. That, and as others have said, not everyone in the cast needs to be paired up before the comic ends. We have Jacky-Ann good to go, Agenny probably (I'd say at this point) going to make it, and possibly Duane getting with Michelle. That's fine for a comic that has less than two months to go.

Although, if Lisa does fall for Stan and get hurt, then I would have to nominate Stan as the Thunderbolt Trickster's new nemesis, the Smarmasaur....

Of course, the Rule of Three says that if something happens in-plot three times, the third should be different in some way. Stan actually falling for Lisa in equal measure, and staying loyal (and public about it) could be a definite tweest.

[sgtrock]

Or is the whole concept of Christian forgiveness too foreign these days?

How are we defining "forgive"? "Forgive" does not mean "like." Forgive does not mean "want to spend time around."

Well, "forgive" in the sense that nail guns and sewage tanks would be off the table as an appropriate response to seeing him again?