Comparative outrage between related comics

[TCampbell]

ukelele, you're eloquent and thoughtful and you've clearly put a lot of effort into your argument, and I hate not to reward that, but we're just not going to agree on this.

While it may not cover all the nuances, the genetic-based theory (reflected in Lady Gaga's latest hit, by the way) is one that many QUILTBAG people find empowering rather than marginalizing. If we went back and changed Ace's entire plot so that his preferences remained identical before and after his shift, then those people would be writing in about how marginalized they felt. There are a number of splits and fissures within the alternate-sexuality community, which we can't hope to even address in a silly horror comic, much less resolve. (Takahashi split the difference, more or less, by making Ranma a forceful personality prone to denial, so that readers were never quite sure how much of his own sexuality he retained in female form. But that's not Ace.)

So, since offending someone with this topic is inevitable, we have to go with what we believe. You say "certain people" feel marginalized by plots like Ace's, and I assume you're one of them. I am sorry about that. For others among us, though, this kind of reassignment is a powerful metaphor for feeling urges, and even an entire sexual identity, that one neither likes nor wants, that doesn't seem consistent with one's concept of oneself. This includes some pre-op transsexuals. And yes, for people like that, this story did need to be done like this: it's a visualization of something that one can't often describe without metaphor. I know Gisele, and trust me: she's nowhere near "complacent" about gender issues.

And no, "problematic" is not necessarily problematic: "problematic" is sometimes in the eye of the beholder. When Gisele originally proposed this series, I rolled my eyes. "Oh, goody, another @#$%^ing vampire manga, how original." What turned me on to it was Gisele's willingness to explore actual horror, which means teasing some disturbing ideas, while maintaining a generally irreverent tone overall. And yes, that includes ideas about sexual identity. You might find that is a contradiction that you can't handle: I find it the primary reason that Eerie Cuties is interesting to me.

And now I really have to break this off: I'm running way late on a handful of other things, and I think I might have exhausted my thoughts on the topic.

[xoxi]

Long story short - no matter what you write about, someone's going to find it offensive and someone's going to be able to relate to it. If a certain artistic work offends you, it's best to simply stop reading it rather than try to take it away from the people who do identify with it.

[Freemage]

Given that the research doesn't entirely support your view point on the role of genetics, I would encourage you to reconsider it. It's not so much thorny as increasingly weakly linked and mainly based on only one small section of the queer community. Even if it's a nice explanation, if it isn't right it shouldn't be promoted as strongly as it is. I'd like it if we could hit the point where the way we are (queer) is not considered to be something that has to be intrinsic because otherwise if we actually do have some choice in our identity, then we would be marginalised for making the "wrong" choice.

My understanding of the (current and evolving) literature is that the origins of sexual orientation and gender identity are very complex, but that they do include strong genetic and pre-natal components (hormones released by the mother during gestation are getting a lot of attention). While there may still be some additional changes from the post-natal environment, those seem to be pretty minor by comparison, with the possible exception of severe trauma (which can have all sorts of unpredictable side-effects).

This ties back to something that, while said in jest, reflects attitudes which are harmful. That we're fated to be straight or gay or something else that won't get screentime, we have no say in our identity. It's usually worse to say we choose our "lifestyles" but the flip side of the coin is not a total, respectful perspective.

We choose our conduct. But the underlying motives for that conduct generally ARE beyond our control. You can't choose to be straight (attracted solely to the opposite sex) if you aren't straight to begin with. What you CAN do, however, is reject pre-packaged "identities" that society and individuals may try to force upon you.

The problem with the idea that "problematic is problematic" is that you can almost always find SOMEONE for any given position who finds that position to be problematic. As a for-instance, I used to participate in the Keenspot Forum for the Winger comic. One of the regular posters there was a post-op MtF, who was happily married in Texas (where her physical gender was considered the dominant one, so being post-op F and in a relationship with a man made her heterosexual in the eyes of the law).

This poster was something I hadn't encountered before, though: an utterly homophobic trans. The struggle to come to grips with her gender identity had obviously been extremely intense, and during it, she'd come to regard "Sexually attracted to men" as part-and-parcel of identifying as female (pretty much the exact view that folks were mistakenly attributing to Gisele in the reaction to that panel, now that I think about it). For her, the notion that you could identify as female and still be attracted to women, or as male and still be attracted to men, was simply unacceptably "problematic".

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Oh, I think Penny Arcade had some major problems, not the least of which was habitually explaining the joke, and trying to both do edgy humor and justify themselves to critics. In general, I've found that creators almost never win when they respond to their worst critics rather than take it on the chin.

Of course the down-side of embodied intelligence where biology matters is that the straight body-swap story becomes a bit of a problem in more ways than one, opening up a mess of philosophical conundrums.

[Valerie]

This might be weird, but my whole life, I've thought of it as cauliflower and broccoli.

Some people like cauliflower, some people like broccoli, some like both, some like neither. They're both equally as good as for you, and even if you skip them, there are other ways to get the nutrients they provide. (Yes, I'm comparing vitamin pills to masturbation.)

Why do some people like one more than the other? Why don't all men like cauliflower and all women like broccoli?

Most importantly, why does it matter? Maybe some of us are genetically predisposed to preferring cauliflower, or maybe some of us had a bad experience with broccoli when we were younger. The bottom line is that is doesn't matter. If no one is going to sit around and analyze why we like certain foods or criticize us in a serious way for liking them, then it shouldn't apply to anything else. You are what you are for whatever reason and it's no one's business.

If there is a reason for any of it, then there shouldn't be that much emphasis on it. I think that's what Ukelele was trying to get at, but he/she (sorry, not sure of your gender) is assigning significance to it because it's (possibly) the wrong reason. It's difficult to say that the reasons don't matter and then start on about how someone's reasoning is wrong. I don't mean to be rude, it just kind of contradicts, the way I'm reading it.

[NobodySpecial]

(Yes, I'm comparing vitamin pills to masturbation.)

Use twice daily!

[Azrael44]

To the EC conversation I can add only this: There is a reason I sometimes refer to Nina as "Innocent Evil". It may just be me but, I see that little girl as having a dark streak a mile wide, she just isn't really conscious of it (yet). So this body swap thing really isn't a shock for me.

[showler]

To the EC conversation I can add only this: There is a reason I sometimes refer to Nina as "Innocent Evil". It may just be me but, I see that little girl as having a dark streak a mile wide, she just isn't really conscious of it (yet). So this body swap thing really isn't a shock for me.

Considering there are theories she is the reincarnation of a great evil queen, and if she ever drinks blood she will revert to that personality....

[ukelele]

The problem with the idea that "problematic is problematic" is that you can almost always find SOMEONE for any given position who finds that position to be problematic.

This is the thing I think has been missed a little in what I'm saying. I'm not disagreeing that conflict is common. I'm saying that you need to listen when it happens, and let it influence the way you act, write and think in future.

So no, you don't have to change a plot that's been written, you don't have to feel bad, you just have to acknowledge that something is, as I said, problematic.

You just have to think about it, that's all I'm asking. And you don't have to stop reading something that offends you, you can criticise and analyse; determine just what values it reflects and whether those values are harmful in some way. Discussion is the first step to understanding and change. You don't need to agree, you just need to see. Which is how artists hone their craft, no need to limit that just to aesthetics.

And Valerie, yeah I think you get me. Sexuality is very fluid and its mechanisms are not well understood, sometimes people will switch between different types of sexualities, sometimes they will stay within the same sphere. The veggie analogy works pretty well. I'm femme, so she is perfectly fine

I think you've got the current theories, Freemage but the genetic component may not be strong. From what I can see, it's mainly male homosexuality that is posited to have a sex-linked genetic component according to the lit (and it doesn't explain all cismen who identify as gay, it seems to ignore people who aren't entirely same-sex attracted too). It annoys me that there's not only bi-erasure but also... lesb-erasure? Maybe it's because predominantly same-sex attracted men are easier to get into studies or they just can't find a gene that's linked to dykedom yet. I feel sorry for the woman who had her hate on, seems like all that poison about women only being women if they conformed to 50s mores got to her... However, what she considers problematic is not, it's just homophobia. Problematic is a privileged group (and those supporting it) exerting that privilege in ways that hurt, upset, anger, etc. You can be in a sexual minority and still not be an ally, sadly.

[AngFdz]

I didn't find what Nina did weird. She's proven to be thoughtless, and pretty selfish, and switching bodies with her sister is both. And with how EC usually goes, she's not going to keep her sisters body. It'll be a hijinks ensues sort of thing until she gets back her normal body.

Plus, since Layla actually needs to drink blood, I'm betting that if she tries to kiss Kade, she's going to end up taking a good chomp out of him instead...

[mindstalk]

Yeah, what Nina's done, and plans to do, is really out of bounds if you think about it seriously. For horror comedy, I dunno.

My personal small bet would be that homosexuality is usually due to pre-natal development stuff. So "built in" once born, but not genetic per se.

What's transphobic about gender-switch stories? And does transphobic have some meaning hear other than "afraid fo trans people"? I'd bet the majority of gender-swap stories have been written by people who weren't thinking of trans people, if they even knew of such.

[Freemage]

Yeah, what Nina's done, and plans to do, is really out of bounds if you think about it seriously. For horror comedy, I dunno.

My personal small bet would be that homosexuality is usually due to pre-natal development stuff. So "built in" once born, but not genetic per se.

What's transphobic about gender-switch stories? And does transphobic have some meaning hear other than "afraid fo trans people"? I'd bet the majority of gender-swap stories have been written by people who weren't thinking of trans people, if they even knew of such.

"-phobic" generally means "hostile to". It can have an element of fear, but there's also usually an accusation of ignorance and/or hatred, as well.

In this case, I think the biggest accusation is of "harm by ignorance". The bolded portion feeds into this. Most pre-op trans feel like they're "in the wrong body", so when a story comes out that actually has the character BE in the wrong body, at least so far as gender is concerned, there's a real feeling that the population that has to actually deal with that shit is getting portrayed by someone who has no idea what they're talking about.

Again, i don't believe that to be the case for Gisele, simply noting that some folks have seen so many horrid portrayals of gender-swapping, that they end up assuming all of them are the same.

[TCampbell]

"-phobic" generally means "hostile to". It can have an element of fear, but there's also usually an accusation of ignorance and/or hatred, as well.

Well, this gets confusing. The Greek root is in fear, not hate, and when it's applied to inanimate objects it usually does mean fear, e.g., "claustrophobia, agoraphobia." I'm pretty sure "homophobia" has its roots in the concept that the hate for homosexuals is rooted in fear, which may often be true but wouldn't make it any more (or even less) acceptable. Ancient Greek for hate is "miseo" as reflected in "misogyny," but "homomiseia" hasn't really caught on.

[Freemage]

"-phobic" generally means "hostile to". It can have an element of fear, but there's also usually an accusation of ignorance and/or hatred, as well.

Well, this gets confusing. The Greek root is in fear, not hate, and when it's applied to inanimate objects it usually does mean fear, e.g., "claustrophobia, agoraphobia." I'm pretty sure "homophobia" has its roots in the concept that the hate for homosexuals is rooted in fear, which may often be true but wouldn't make it any more (or even less) acceptable. Ancient Greek for hate is "miseo" as reflected in "misogyny," but "homomiseia" hasn't really caught on.

Yeah, that one used to throw me, as well. Then I decided to drop prescriptivism and life became less stressful. And honestly, I doubt "transmiseia" would work any better.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Yes, there's a conflict between the roots and how the term has been used consistently since the 80s. It's one of many cases where it's water under the bridge and there's not much to gain in complaining about it.