[8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

[Alice Macher]

Another note... I hate how hypocritical Aggie is being here. She's totally willing to ride her high horse into the sunset and preach forgiveness and outreach when it comes to Bob/Elmer/whoever it was at that party, who I feel are much more destructive than Stan, but when Lisa actually goes and forgives and makes a point to be a friend to someone that's been an idiot, she gets in the hot seat.

That reminds me: T has said recently that the matter of Aggie reaching out to Bob after the party will be touched on at some point. Perhaps we're almost at that point?

[Valerie]

The expression on Sara's face is...beautifully rendered. Well done, Jason!

Agreed. I've said it before, and I may or may not have opportunity to say it again before the comic ends, but anger is a good look for Sara.

Oh God, it is. Maybe that's why I miss straight-Sara so much.

Regarding Stan, he's not, like, evil or anything. A little too ambitious and short-sighted, maybe.

Now, that said, Penny and Sara aren't in the wrong for disliking him. He broke two of their friends' hearts. Even under normal circumstances, that's enough to turn friends against you. Throw in Michelle's eating disorder developing not long after and it's more than enough justification. It doesn't matter what he meant to do, it matters what he did. After all, people pretty rarely mean to break someone's heart, it just happens. That doesn't make it okay, though.

I also feel that Lisa isn't in the wrong. She's looking at it on the not-Michelle-and-Brandi's-friend side. (I'm sure she doesn't dislike them, but how often have we even seen them together?) So she sees it as, "Yes, he hurt Brandi and Michelle. No, that doesn't make him Stalin. He seems mostly cool, I'll give him a chance."

Meanwhile, Penny and Sara are on the first side of it-- that bastard hurt their friends, so he can rot in hell.

Edit: Also, I have to say, I absolutely love that Lisa is standing up for herself here. Whenever it comes to conflict, I feel like we've seen her shrink back and try to make it go away. I can't recall her ever standing up for herself, especially not against Aggie.

[EmptyHat]

Fred has actually been seen on-camera since then.

Was that at that graduation thing when he said he wouldn't be around much for the Summer?

[Adrishiana]

Fred has actually been seen on-camera since then.

Was that at that graduation thing when he said he wouldn't be around much for the Summer?

At the basketball game, where he said something like that, yes. But "not much" doesn't mean "not at all," and the fact remains that Sara did not set out to separate Daphne from anyone but Sara herself, where Stan explicitly did.

Basically, Stan decided that Michelle's physical and mental health were an acceptable sacrifice for ruining Penny's life.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Daphne has every right to be a bit pissed off given that Sara 1) cheated, 2) never came clean about it, and 3) tried to manipulate Daphne into being the "bad guy." To Sara's credit, she did at least admit that 3 was unfair and entirely Sara's problem.

Penny/Rich was a train wreck waiting to happen, given that they both had a honking chip on their shoulders about their relative level of privilege.

Stan/Michelle was probably Stan's worst problem, but Stan's not responsible for Michelle's mental illness. Stan/Brandi is a bit more ambiguous. After both of them were protesting way too much that they were feeling things out, Cyndi drops a bucket of chum in the water, and Stan acted in his own interest.

But here's the thing. Those hatchets were already buried, the water was under the bridge and into the next state, and the wind done gone. Dredging up old crap over the loan of a video camera is just plain trashy.

Of course, Lisa should have explained that the camera came with strings attached before they decided to use it. So that's another problem.

[JackFairy]

Stan did a lot more than just "dump two of their friends." He basically showed himself to be someone who will always put himself first and hurt others in the process, repeatedly. That is just not someone who is good to be friends with.

First off, he always hated Penny for absolutely no reason. Basically, he hated Penny because Rich liked her (and did some things to please her that Stan felt weren't "cool enough). He continued on with being a huge asshole to Penny long after Rich was out of the picture, again, with no reason. Eventually he got to the "barely polite" level with her. That Penny tolerated Stan in the group at all was a testament to her maturity and respect for her friends. I would not want to be around someone who was always a jerk to me for no reason, and I would expect my friends to look out for me and not bring such a person around.

Second off, his big crime with Michelle wasn't that he DUMPED her--that is something that he should have done, and much earlier. It was that he lead her on for months, allowing her to think they were in a mutual boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, and as a result, making her believe he had feelings for her, only to eventually tell her none of that was true. Imaging someone breaking up with you and saying "yeah, and I actually never really wanted to be with you in the first place, it's just that you were pretty hot and I liked the sex. Never had any feelings for you, though." Oh and "but also, the fact that you wouldn't dump your friend for me contributed too."

Annnnnd the fact that he was siding with Karen at the time, working to destroy Penny's social life and have all her friends leave her for zero reason.

Then he got together with Brandi, and asked her for a relationship--and Brandi agreed, although we know that Brandi can be very guarded about being hurt. Although Brandi likewise agreed to keep their relationship on the down-low during the election, Stan's actions at the debate and the way he was willing to disavow her existence so publicly showed her he cared a lot more for himself than for her. It's one things to keep it quiet that you're dating in general, and another to flat-out announce to the whole school (much of whom surely know he's seeing Brandi in SOME capacity) "no, there's absolutely no one important in my life." And maybe it made Brandi think she shouldn't have been asked to keep things quiet in the first place.

Basically, Stan has shown time and time again that he cannot really be relied on and only cares for "number one" (with Jack being the sole exception). And he still doesn't like Penny. Why befriend someone like that?

[Adrishiana]

Stan did a lot more than just "dump two of their friends." He basically showed himself to be someone who will always put himself first and hurt others in the process, repeatedly. That is just not someone who is good to be friends with.

First off, he always hated Penny for absolutely no reason. Basically, he hated Penny because Rich liked her (and did some things to please her that Stan felt weren't "cool enough). He continued on with being a huge asshole to Penny long after Rich was out of the picture, again, with no reason. Eventually he got to the "barely polite" level with her. That Penny tolerated Stan in the group at all was a testament to her maturity and respect for her friends. I would not want to be around someone who was always a jerk to me for no reason, and I would expect my friends to look out for me and not bring such a person around.

Second off, his big crime with Michelle wasn't that he DUMPED her--that is something that he should have done, and much earlier. It was that he lead her on for months, allowing her to think they were in a mutual boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, and as a result, making her believe he had feelings for her, only to eventually tell her none of that was true. Imaging someone breaking up with you and saying "yeah, and I actually never really wanted to be with you in the first place, it's just that you were pretty hot and I liked the sex. Never had any feelings for you, though." Oh and "but also, the fact that you wouldn't dump your friend for me contributed too."

Annnnnd the fact that he was siding with Karen at the time, working to destroy Penny's social life and have all her friends leave her for zero reason.

Then he got together with Brandi, and asked her for a relationship--and Brandi agreed, although we know that Brandi can be very guarded about being hurt. Although Brandi likewise agreed to keep their relationship on the down-low during the election, Stan's actions at the debate and the way he was willing to disavow her existence so publicly showed her he cared a lot more for himself than for her. It's one things to keep it quiet that you're dating in general, and another to flat-out announce to the whole school (much of whom surely know he's seeing Brandi in SOME capacity) "no, there's absolutely no one important in my life." And maybe it made Brandi think she shouldn't have been asked to keep things quiet in the first place.

Basically, Stan has shown time and time again that he cannot really be relied on and only cares for "number one" (with Jack being the sole exception). And he still doesn't like Penny. Why befriend someone like that?

BECAUSE LISA THINKS YOU SHOULD

[maritza]

I believe Spike called Lisa's problem a "Pollock Complex" in the last Templar, AZ.

[CEOIII]

Stan did a lot more than just "dump two of their friends." He basically showed himself to be someone who will always put himself first and hurt others in the process, repeatedly. That is just not someone who is good to be friends with.

First off, he always hated Penny for absolutely no reason. Basically, he hated Penny because Rich liked her (and did some things to please her that Stan felt weren't "cool enough). He continued on with being a huge asshole to Penny long after Rich was out of the picture, again, with no reason. Eventually he got to the "barely polite" level with her. That Penny tolerated Stan in the group at all was a testament to her maturity and respect for her friends. I would not want to be around someone who was always a jerk to me for no reason, and I would expect my friends to look out for me and not bring such a person around.

Second off, his big crime with Michelle wasn't that he DUMPED her--that is something that he should have done, and much earlier. It was that he lead her on for months, allowing her to think they were in a mutual boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, and as a result, making her believe he had feelings for her, only to eventually tell her none of that was true. Imaging someone breaking up with you and saying "yeah, and I actually never really wanted to be with you in the first place, it's just that you were pretty hot and I liked the sex. Never had any feelings for you, though." Oh and "but also, the fact that you wouldn't dump your friend for me contributed too."

Annnnnd the fact that he was siding with Karen at the time, working to destroy Penny's social life and have all her friends leave her for zero reason.

Then he got together with Brandi, and asked her for a relationship--and Brandi agreed, although we know that Brandi can be very guarded about being hurt. Although Brandi likewise agreed to keep their relationship on the down-low during the election, Stan's actions at the debate and the way he was willing to disavow her existence so publicly showed her he cared a lot more for himself than for her. It's one things to keep it quiet that you're dating in general, and another to flat-out announce to the whole school (much of whom surely know he's seeing Brandi in SOME capacity) "no, there's absolutely no one important in my life." And maybe it made Brandi think she shouldn't have been asked to keep things quiet in the first place.

Basically, Stan has shown time and time again that he cannot really be relied on and only cares for "number one" (with Jack being the sole exception). And he still doesn't like Penny. Why befriend someone like that?

BECAUSE LISA THINKS YOU SHOULD

Or because Aggie thinks they should.

All Lisa needs to say Wednesday: "We signed a pledge, after the Popsicle Wars, that we'd treat each other with respect. That we'd give people second chances. Hell, you reached out to date-rapey Bob, for Cthlulu's sake. So, are we saying that everyone deserves a second chance, except Stan?"

[Adrishiana]

Or because Aggie thinks they should.

All Lisa needs to say Wednesday: "We signed a pledge, after the Popsicle Wars, that we'd treat each other with respect. That we'd give people second chances. Hell, you reached out to date-rapey Bob, for Cthlulu's sake. So, are we saying that everyone deserves a second chance, except Stan?"

That doesn't quite follow, though. For one thing, Stan already had his second chance. For another, respect =/= like. Finally, Lisa is not really in a position to demand that they like Stan on the basis that it would break their pledge if they didn't when she already showed a pretty decided lack of respect for Aggie and co. by lying to them.

[Valerie]

Or because Aggie thinks they should.

All Lisa needs to say Wednesday: "We signed a pledge, after the Popsicle Wars, that we'd treat each other with respect. That we'd give people second chances. Hell, you reached out to date-rapey Bob, for Cthlulu's sake. So, are we saying that everyone deserves a second chance, except Stan?"

That doesn't quite follow, though. For one thing, Stan already had his second chance. For another, respect =/= like. Finally, Lisa is not really in a position to demand that they like Stan on the basis that it would break their pledge if they didn't when she already showed a pretty decided lack of respect for Aggie and co. by lying to them.

I didn't read it as her lying that much. They needed a camera, she acquired a camera. She didn't tell them it was Stan because they would be angry (understandably). She even says here in the strip that she didn't know Stan would ask for credit. She thought that, at most, P&A might find out later and, by then, the feelings might have cooled off some. Would they automatically like him for it? No. But they might be able to accept that it happened without getting upset.

Also, if Aggie did in fact reach out to Bob (who is a date-rapist and just slimy in general), and Lisa brings that up, it'll either make the conversation die down or (more likely) heat up really fast. I'm... almost hoping for this, 'cause again, I like seeing Lisa defend herself.

[Alice Macher]

Because I feel like being evil...

If Penny, Aggie and Sara are this angry with Lisa just for maintaining enough contact with Stan to borrow his camera, how will they react if/when they learn she's been sleeping with him?

[rebochan]

They really do have a point. Stan may not mean to be a horrible person, but he's still willing to act like one when he wants to be. Just because he's Lisa's new friend with benefits doesn't change that.

Quite frankly, if he really DID insist on credit, he's showing that he's still a selfish jerk at the end of the day. Though I personally wonder if Lisa's conjured this up out of a misguided sense of trying to get him out of the doghouse. Call it her well-meaning, but ill-thought-out attempt to help someone.

[Adrishiana]

I didn't read it as her lying that much. They needed a camera, she acquired a camera. She didn't tell them it was Stan because they would be angry (understandably). She even says here in the strip that she didn't know Stan would ask for credit. She thought that, at most, P&A might find out later and, by then, the feelings might have cooled off some. Would they automatically like him for it? No. But they might be able to accept that it happened without getting upset.

Also, if Aggie did in fact reach out to Bob (who is a date-rapist and just slimy in general), and Lisa brings that up, it'll either make the conversation die down or (more likely) heat up really fast. I'm... almost hoping for this, 'cause again, I like seeing Lisa defend herself.

It is still lying, though, in which case Aggie gets to decide how angry she can be about that, not Lisa (despite what Lisa appears to believe about how much say she has in others' feelings).

The two are not really analogous, though, since Aggie merely reached out to Bob, with as-yet unknown results, and has not as far as we've seen tried to insist that anyone else change their perspective on him. Lisa, meanwhile, is insisting that it's "not right" that they don't especially care for Stan, with good reason, because SHE likes him and her feelings are the only ones that matter.

Additionally, Lisa's own ability to whine about the pledge being violated in terms of "respect" is further eroded by the fact that she is literally screaming in Aggie's face.

[maritza]

Honestly, horrible as Stan is, I don't think Penny, Aggie or Sara have ANY right to tell Lisa who she can or cannot boink.

But if I was in their place right now, I'd be HORRIBLY pissed at Lisa. Why, just in the middle of my happiness over getting rid of ol' Smarmy Face forever, I find out I *OWE* him a favor??? A favor I would have never, in a million zillion years, would have thought to ask (especially since Sara was more than willing to go and cover the camera problem).

And to find out Lis's intentions, while setting me up with this debt, was that I eventually found out and feel grateful to ol' Smarmy Face or whatever???

Not.

COOL.

ps. the fact that Stan asked for credit is hilarious. Ahahaha Lis, don't you see he's a total jerk? He's fundamentally uncapable of doing anything without getting something back.

Isn't that right, Mr. "You Owe Me One Month of Wingmanning"?