Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

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Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby Topic Starter Robot » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:02 pm

Behind Closed Doors 29 30 31 32 33 34
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby Alice Macher » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:11 pm

#29: Some of my favourite Gisèle panels ever in this one.

#34: Imaginary Stan No. 1's line was the pull quote I used on TV Tropes, for both his entry on the P&A Characters page, and the recap for this arc. It just sums him up, in an ironic way, so well. (And no, I'm not talking about the matter of whether he has bi leanings. I mean his desperate wanting to believe he isn't complex.)
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby FlyingFish » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:12 pm

I see #33 and immediately contrast it with this strip, where force and resistance became a turn on rather than a turn off. A general development on Penny's part (that she felt more comfortable surrendering control), or a sign that she had an easier time surrendering to Aggie in particular?
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby LadyObvious23 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:21 pm

Fer frack's sake Karen. Get a clue. Yer boyfriend wasn't in the mood and you DIDN'T respect his fucking boundaries. Here's a moment where the whole 'KEEP YER HANDS TO YERSELF' needs to be enforced.
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby Alice Macher » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:08 am

FlyingFish wrote:I see #33 and immediately contrast it with this strip, where force and resistance became a turn on rather than a turn off. A general development on Penny's part (that she felt more comfortable surrendering control), or a sign that she had an easier time surrendering to Aggie in particular?


I think it's not so much Rich's pinning her down she's objecting to (she does after all say, "Let me get more comf[ortable]", not "Get off me"), as it is his overall lack of pacing ("Not. So. Fast," she says); he rolls on top of and pins her without any sort of transition, and then starts undressing her. Whereas Aggie, in the strip prior to the one you linked and in the first panel of the one you did, gives Penny more of a heads-up as to what she has in mind. She also doesn't go right for Penny's clothes, but lets the "struggle" go on for a bit, as foreplay.
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby Adrishiana » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:26 pm

One wonders how much different things would have been if Marshall had indeed stuck with realizing that Karen didn't really... well, I think she had respect for Marshall's wishes as long they didn't conflict with her own wishes, or her need to see herself as all the things she wasn't pre-makeover (and having a hot boyfriend does shore up that she is now those things). Would a distraught Karen have lacked the emotional wherewithal to plan out and try to execute Penny's (and to a lesser extent, Aggie's) ruination or would she have somehow twisted things to be someone else's fault (whose is up to you) and struck out harder/sooner?
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby CEOIII » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:25 pm

Adrishiana wrote:One wonders how much different things would have been if Marshall had indeed stuck with realizing that Karen didn't really... well, I think she had respect for Marshall's wishes as long they didn't conflict with her own wishes, or her need to see herself as all the things she wasn't pre-makeover (and having a hot boyfriend does shore up that she is now those things). Would a distraught Karen have lacked the emotional wherewithal to plan out and try to execute Penny's (and to a lesser extent, Aggie's) ruination or would she have somehow twisted things to be someone else's fault (whose is up to you) and struck out harder/sooner?


I think she would've found another guy and launched herself into an "I don't NEED you, I can have any guy I want" phase, while still plotting and executing Pen's downfall. The question is, would Karen's eventual fall have been as hard as it was, if it occurred at all?
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby timemonkey » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:27 pm

I'm not so sure, the more that went right for her the more convinced she was that she was right. Little by little the angels of her nature were silenced and ignored. Had things gone less well for her she likely wouldn't have gone so far. I don't think she'd have ever completely gotten over her problems, she's got some serious issues but she really needed things to blow up in her face, much harder than they did.
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby Adrishiana » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:24 am

CEOIII wrote:I think she would've found another guy and launched herself into an "I don't NEED you, I can have any guy I want" phase, while still plotting and executing Pen's downfall. The question is, would Karen's eventual fall have been as hard as it was, if it occurred at all?


It would be interesting to see if that set off a chain of very short relationships, depending on how well Karen was able to disguise "BUT I NEED A MAN TO SHOW EVERYONE I'M HOT NOW" and how well her potential beaux responded to it if she couldn't.
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby thebitterfig » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:05 am

Alice Macher wrote:
FlyingFish wrote:where force and resistance became a turn on rather than a turn off. A general development on Penny's part (that she felt more comfortable surrendering control), or a sign that she had an easier time surrendering to Aggie in particular?


I think it's not so much Rich's pinning her down she's objecting to (she does after all say, "Let me get more comf[ortable]", not "Get off me"), as it is his overall lack of pacing ("Not. So. Fast," she says)


I think the other thing is experience. I mean, this is now, Aggie is at least a year an a half later for Penny, after this, after running away with Rich, after the beach and closet with Aggie. I think Penny understands herself better, understands sex better, and that makes up the difference.
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby Doc Harleen » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:53 pm

What is the general fan opinion on Stan? Straight and "non-complex", or a bisexual in denial?
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby LadyObvious23 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:48 pm

He might be bisexual in denial. Kinda acting like it but I dunno. :\
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby Alice Macher » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:04 pm

I see him as straight plus Rich, at most. That he fantasizes about Rich while Michelle is going down on him suggests that his feelings go beyond the usual sort of heterosexual teen guy hero-worship. But we never see him otherwise attracted to boys.
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby brasca » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:32 pm

Adrishiana wrote:One wonders how much different things would have been if Marshall had indeed stuck with realizing that Karen didn't really... well, I think she had respect for Marshall's wishes as long they didn't conflict with her own wishes, or her need to see herself as all the things she wasn't pre-makeover (and having a hot boyfriend does shore up that she is now those things). Would a distraught Karen have lacked the emotional wherewithal to plan out and try to execute Penny's (and to a lesser extent, Aggie's) ruination or would she have somehow twisted things to be someone else's fault (whose is up to you) and struck out harder/sooner?


There's probably a Karen 2020 that could answer that. Perhaps a minor defeat might have been a learning experience and not for the better. Marshall was one of the few positive influences and she could've been happy with him instead of devoting herself to dethroning Penny.
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Re: Re-read week 57: Behind Closed Doors 29 - 34

Postby oddtail » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:43 am

Alice Macher wrote:I see him as straight plus Rich, at most. That he fantasizes about Rich while Michelle is going down on him suggests that his feelings go beyond the usual sort of heterosexual teen guy hero-worship. But we never see him otherwise attracted to boys.


I pretty much agree, except I'd say his attraction to Rich *is* a hero-worship thing. I think physical attraction *can* happen for... circumstantial reasons. I think Stan's attraction to Rich is the way his admiration manifests. It's more in his mind than his body, if that makes any sense.
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