Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

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Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby CEOIII » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:13 am

Here's the thing: What Karen wants, at this point, is for Marshall to want her.

She even says so a few comics earlier: She wants him to "wrap around her like a shark's jaws and chew". An odd (bordering on creepy) analogy, but telling: There's the possibility that she's not getting the idea that he wants her. That's a failure of communication in their relationship, which is on both of them. Not excusing Karen's pushing the issue here (once he said "OUT THE SHOWER, WOMAN!" that's what she should've done, discussion closed) but the fact that she felt she had to make a move like this falls on both their heads.

Course, what's coming up will probably kill off any and all goodwill Karen's built up with the readers to this point. I know it did for me. (maybe not all, but a lot of it)
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Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby FlyingFish » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:37 pm

oddtail wrote:All I said in my past few posts is that I am not nearly as outraged by what Karen does as I was when I originally read the comic years ago. And I did my best to explain why.

EDIT: to put it another way - maybe an analogy will explain better what I mean. I feel like I'm saying "OK, punching someone is wrong, but it can be something totally different depending on circumstances. And no, a guy getting punched is not the same as a girl getting punched, for a variety of reasons". And I feel like your response is "Oh, so you think punching a guy is OK/legal?". I do not. I do not defend anyone who performs an act of physical violence. But acts of violence are not born equal.

I don't know, does this analogy better explain the intention of my posts?

Apologies. I think a couple of things provoked the response: First, I generally interpret the term "give her leeway" to mean "let this slide/ignore it", which we are apparently actually in agreement she does not deserve. So I got confused at your meaning. Second, my level of outrage has if anything grown, not lessened, both because this area is a bit of a pet peeve of mine (I have had so many people of both genders unable to comprehend how I, a male, would NOT want to have sex as soon as the opportunity arose), and because I know Karen's entire arc and how her preference for control will dominate everything she does (this was in many ways a major step in taking "pretty people get to do what they want!" to its logical conclusion in Popsicle Wars).

ETA: That "pet peeve" bit, in hindsight, sounds a bit like it comes from the low end of the MRA movement, so I just want to be clear: if Karen had stopped at #27, I would let the entire thing go. But she went on to commit an act of sexual assault. And then gloated. (And was never punished in the slightest for it.) There are VERY few characters in P&A -- Cyndi, maybe Charlotte, MAYBE Charisma -- that have done worse.
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Re: Re-read week 56: Behind Closed Doors 23 - 28

Postby Twitcher » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:56 am

brasca wrote:
FlyingFish wrote:Stepping away from the Karen conversation, which I'll have more to say about next week anyway. Instead, I'll first take a moment to discuss #26: namely, Michelle's voiced dislike for her father. Is that an act ("get back at him" being an excuse for what follows)? Or real, or a combination? And if real, is it because his career is low-income compared to the parents of Michelle's peers (bad reason) or because he's inattentive to her and her needs, as seen when she starts starving herself (good reason, although "jerk" implies more intent than I think her dad has)? Or, again, a combination?

That's one thing I found unappealing about Michelle. We find out later that her father used to spend a lot of time with her, but was encouraged by his wife to let her make friends her own age so I don't think he put his career ambitions above her happiness like she thinks. I suppose it's not unusual since Penny has similar resentment for her father although in his case he had to settle down due to health reasons. They're teenagers so they have a far greater tendency to be selfish. I may be alone this, but given Michelle's personality traits of being a yes girl, need to be loved and appreciated, and unsupportive parents I still think Helen was pushed out because the former could glam up better.

I think Michelle's parents were and are VERY supportive, but Michelle believes that their entire world is always, ALWAYS supposed to revolve around her, goddamnit! After all, her family is her refuge from Pen-- from school. From school. Michelle's characterization here is kind of unfortunate, anorexia and bulimia don't always arise out of borderline personality disorder or narcissism. Sometimes it's a manifestation of anxiety or OCD.
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