Feminism - help with finding info

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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby mindstalk » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:30 am

Underreporting to police can be counteracted by victim surveys, i.e. asking people "have you been raped".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped during that year) to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%. There are several possible explanations for this, including stricter laws, education on security for women, and a correlation with the rise in Internet pornography.[9] But other government surveys, such as the Sexual Victimization of College Women study, critique the NCVS on the basis it includes only those acts perceived as crimes by the victim, and report a much higher victimization rate.[10]


This is one of the problematic features of the higher numbers, when they involve the researchers deciding that some things are rape, even if the supposed victim disagrees. I think I've heard of cases where any drunk sex was counted as rape or assault

http://www.womenundersiegeproject.org/b ... rape-stats
A study published in 2009 found that changes in survey question wording led to a tenfold difference in reports of past-year rape victimization (as opposed to lifetime victimization), from about two per 1,000 to about 20 per 1,000 among U.S. college women


Though for extra confusion, the abstract linked to doesn't mention a 10-fold difference.

With *any* statistic it's important to ask what the methodology was, and if you don't know, to think about how important it might be, i.e. how objective is the question, how much bias might be in the researchers? Dead bodies and missing people tend to be noticed and are fairly unambiguous, so homicide stats seem pretty reliable a priori. We can probably put high trust in claims of average temperatures or rainfall at particular locations, though generalizing those results to other areas could involve lots of issues. Lots of other stuff is harder to define or risks high bias and desires to minimize or maximize results, or reasons for skewed data. Rape is really high on ambiguity, bias, and reluctance to report. "How many people are racist" is probably similarly problematic.
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby Trefle » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:00 am

Mmmmmm.
MMMMM!

Reviving this with a question/request.

So I am taking this wonderful MOOC class about gender treatments in comic books..and they have comic book assignments where you are told to draw a comic about gendered things you'd experienced in your life.
Recently there's been a disturbing amount of posts in my Facebook essentially guilt-tripping/coercing Muslim girls to wear veils. I'm thinking of drawing that.

However...
I am no Muslim, nor am I (physically a girl). At the same time as I'd like to talk about this, it doesn't really seem like it's my battle per se? I feel a bit white knighting; a bit "HARK, OPPRESSED FEMALE, LISTEN TO YET ANOTHER MALE TALKING ABOUT WHAT YOU SHOULD DO?"

I'm wondering, how should I approach this?
I want to first and foremost be respectful and understanding, even when I'm not a member of their group.
How do I write this without offending anyone, getting overbearing or disrespecting the -real- voices of the Muslim girls? Without getting patronizing?
Should I even use this idea at all?
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby thebitterfig » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:37 am

Tricky.

The veil is incredibly complex. If it were as simple as oppression, it'd still be tricky. What comes along and really mixes things up is use of the hijab by some modern Muslim feminists. Best pop culture reference is probably Rayyan Hamoudi from the Canadian sitcom "Little Mosque on the Prairie" which I've seen some episodes of on Youtube. Anyhow, the headscarf (which isn't necessarily the same thing as full-body veiling. There are a lot of degrees between hijab, niqab, and burqa) can be a fairly potent symbol of the rejection of the hypersexualisation of western culture, as well as a statement of pride for belonging to a culture and religion which aren't fully embraced by a Christo-normative society. They turn something viewed as oppressive into a positive statement of identity. Things don't really compare, but it's a little like the "Black Is Beautiful" concept. This isn't the majority view of hijab, but I'm just bringing it up to show how complex it is.

For writing a comic... well, the assignment is to deal with gendered things in your own life - it practically demands folks deal with something which has the potential to get offensive. The best way to respect real voices? Use them. Find public statements (interviews, etc) with Muslim girls and women expressing opinions and illustrate them. I'm not sure if research/editing/illustrating is sufficient for the assignment, but it strikes me as truer than making something up. It still has a bit of the "A MAN NEEDS TO BE EDITOR FOR THE VOICES TO BE HEARD."

White, straight, cismale signing off.
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby Trefle » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:00 am

thebitterfig wrote:Tricky.

The veil is incredibly complex. If it were as simple as oppression, it'd still be tricky. What comes along and really mixes things up is use of the hijab by some modern Muslim feminists. Best pop culture reference is probably Rayyan Hamoudi from the Canadian sitcom "Little Mosque on the Prairie" which I've seen some episodes of on Youtube. Anyhow, the headscarf (which isn't necessarily the same thing as full-body veiling. There are a lot of degrees between hijab, niqab, and burqa) can be a fairly potent symbol of the rejection of the hypersexualisation of western culture, as well as a statement of pride for belonging to a culture and religion which aren't fully embraced by a Christo-normative society. They turn something viewed as oppressive into a positive statement of identity. Things don't really compare, but it's a little like the "Black Is Beautiful" concept. This isn't the majority view of hijab, but I'm just bringing it up to show how complex it is.

For writing a comic... well, the assignment is to deal with gendered things in your own life - it practically demands folks deal with something which has the potential to get offensive. The best way to respect real voices? Use them. Find public statements (interviews, etc) with Muslim girls and women expressing opinions and illustrate them. I'm not sure if research/editing/illustrating is sufficient for the assignment, but it strikes me as truer than making something up. It still has a bit of the "A MAN NEEDS TO BE EDITOR FOR THE VOICES TO BE HEARD."

White, straight, cismale signing off.

I agreed. Veils are a complex thing-- and most importantly, very much culturally influenced.
In my country (Indonesia), for instance; the most popular one is the Hijab; and they are much more colorful and varied; there are numerous fashion-type hijab.

I can also see the comparison especially in the U.S, where aside from being a minority, there's also the stigma and the prejudice gained post 9/11 and all that shitty stuff. From the little snippet I read, some Muslim women who wear hijabs in the Western countries seem to do that as a reaction towards the hypersexualization-- although I assume, not all. But there seems to be a sentiment of "Proud to be Muslim" playing in the background. This would be a bit different in my country, because Islam is the majority; in here those people seems to be more or less the 'hardcore' fundamentalists. But there also numerous others who wear hijabs just because.

And thank you for the suggestion. It seems I have to work even harder if I want to be respectful; which is fine and interesting even if I might have missed the deadline. As for the FUCKTON of privilege I have, together with the outsider status, would it do anything if I admit it?
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby Valerie » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:26 am

You gentlemen are more than welcome to help out. We could use all the help we can get. I'm sure many other women would agree with me.

As for the whole hijab thing... I don't wear one. I'm not of that cultural/religious background. But I see people wearing them here fairly often. (Some of them are actually very pretty.)

I guess my feelings on the issue are, "Wear it if you want to, not because you have to." Ain't no man (or woman) gonna be tellin' me what to wear, buddy. I guess the origins can be considered sexist, if they started out as a tradition because men wanted women to cover their heads, but the same can be said of some other clothes, too. I guess skirts are the closest comparison? I'll wear a dress/skirt to formal gatherings (like funerals), but not so much in day-to-day life. A lot of other women wear them, and they have different reasons for that. Some find them more comfortable than pants, some find them more fashionable, some find that men are more attracted to them, some wear them just because they want to be traditional, etc. Where it started doesn't matter as much as where it is now.

RAMBLE RAMBLE RAMBLE I AM ADDING NOTHING. Do we have anyone on the board who wears hijabs? Maybe an insider opinion would be helpful for what Trefle is writing. Especially if you're afraid of overshadowing what these women and girls might think. The best thing you can do, in that regard, is talk to some of them about the subject.
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby Lia S » Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:57 pm

Valerie wrote:I guess skirts are the closest comparison? I'll wear a dress/skirt to formal gatherings (like funerals), but not so much in day-to-day life. A lot of other women wear them, and they have different reasons for that. Some find them more comfortable than pants, some find them more fashionable, some find that some men and women are more attracted to them, some wear them just because they want to be traditional, etc. Where it started doesn't matter as much as where it is now.


FTFY ;)

RAMBLE RAMBLE RAMBLE I AM ADDING NOTHING. Do we have anyone on the board who wears hijabs? Maybe an insider opinion would be helpful for what Trefle is writing. Especially if you're afraid of overshadowing what these women and girls might think. The best thing you can do, in that regard, is talk to some of them about the subject.


Someone once gave me an insider opinion, but it was years ago, so take it with a saltmine.

Her reason was to keep her pretty/sexual/private persona separate from her public persona. It made her feel good/calm/safe. In addition to that, it belonged in her religion/culture, which she was proud of.
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby thebitterfig » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:20 pm

Valerie wrote:(Some of them are actually very pretty.)


Once again, I'll recommend Rayyan Hammoudi. This time, with links. Link. All the stuff seems to be down off of YouTube, alas. And Hulu isn't up everywhere.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/369673

Valerie wrote:You gentlemen are more than welcome to help out. We could use all the help we can get. I'm sure many other women would agree with me.


Oh, no doubt. But it's one of those tread-carefully, look-before-you-leap, don't-say-dumb-shit things.
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby mikbuster » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:42 pm

I kind of like skirts partially because they go with pantyhose/tights and I like the way those feel. The skirt itself I'm less attached to :wink:
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby Trefle » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:28 am

@mikbuster : I love skirts too. ;__; definitely love drawing them, definitely love seeing them. I wish I had the body to be able to wear them.

@Val : The most interesting thing I found when researching about this is that hijab actually had a pragmatic use back then.

History tells us that back in time when Mohamed called upon Arabs to believe in his divine message, Muslims were a tiny minority ridiculed and persecuted by the elite of the Arab peninsula who thought of Muslims as a bunch of heretic slaves — as slavery was booming at the time.

Mohamed kept thinking of ways to differentiate and distinguish his followers from the nonbelievers. At that time it was customary for women to wear Khimaar-shawl- over their heads but would wear it tied behind so their neck and upper chest were visible.

So the khimar verse came out — telling Muslim women to let it cover the neck and chest instead — to differentiate Muslim women from the non-Muslim majority at that time, something that was understood and justified for a minority — that needed differentiation — in conflict with the rest of society.

The historical cause behind the second verses is completely different and rather amusing. The Arabian society, back then, was comprised of masters and slaves and they all lived in houses that had no built-in toilets, so going to the toilet meant literally going outside of the house. Slaves were often harassed while on their way to the open air-toilet and since most Muslims were practically slaves at the time, Mohamed cunningly thought it would be safer for Muslim women to dress up in tall draping garments like the free masters of Arabia did so that nobody would harm them. So, thus came the verses that say Muslim women should cast their outer garments over their persons when they are out in the open for that specific purpose.

Although the rest of the article looked at it more from a Westernized perspective; you can look at it here: http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/10/hijab ... -the-veil/


and then there's this >> http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/essay-01.html which tells a great historical perspective up until 2001 (which is probably one HUGE changing point). In here it's described that apparently :

The veil itself predates Islam by many centuries. In the Near East, Assyrian kings first introduced both the seclusion of women in the royal harem and the veil. Prostitutes and slaves, however, were told not to veil, and were slashed if they disobeyed this law.

Yet it was only in the second Islamic century that the veil became common, first used among the powerful and rich as a status symbol. The Qu'ranic prescription to "draw their veils over their bosoms" became interpreted by some as an injunction to veil one's hair, neck and ears.
Throughout Islamic history only a part of the urban classes were veiled and secluded. Rural and nomadic women, the majority of the population, were not. For a woman to assume a protective veil and stay primarily within the house was a sign that her family had the means to enable her to do so.

Since nomad women rarely veiled, in the early stages of those Islamic countries with nomadic roots, women often were allowed to go unveiled, even in town. In the years of the early Safavid dynasty, women were unveiled, although the custom was changed by late Safavid times.


I do agreed that where it started doesn't matter; it's where it is now. But looking at the historical perspective reveals how little it originally was related to Islam as a religion.The main problem is that Islam has the Hadith; which is to say it in general, a set of 'rules' in life spoken by Muhammad (think Psalms in Bible, I think?). The validity of Hadith is a highly contested subject; some think due to its source being Muhammad, it has equal importance with the Quran. Others claimed it has less importance, that it was at best a guide to survive during that era, and only Quran is the prequisite holy book for Muslims. I -think- the passage where women are told to veil themselves and their body is said in the hadith (actually, IINM Muhammad's wife/niece/female relatives have been known to eschew the veil, iinm)

I'm talking to someone in Tumblr about it; I think I'll look around as well!
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby mindstalk » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:30 am

A common distinction. Jews, who obey the Written and Oral Torah, have (much smaller in number) rivals in the Karaites and Samaritans, who follow only the Written Torah. (Samaritans are pre-Diaspora, quite possibly the original "Jews", Karaites seem a later spinoff of Rabbinical Judaism.) Christianity has Catholicism, with Bible + Tradition, vs. Protestants, Bible only...
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby Valerie » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:17 am

Lia S wrote:
Valerie wrote:I guess skirts are the closest comparison? I'll wear a dress/skirt to formal gatherings (like funerals), but not so much in day-to-day life. A lot of other women wear them, and they have different reasons for that. Some find them more comfortable than pants, some find them more fashionable, some find that some men and women are more attracted to them, some wear them just because they want to be traditional, etc. Where it started doesn't matter as much as where it is now.


FTFY ;)


Sorry. :P
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby Lia S » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:49 pm

Valerie wrote:
Lia S wrote:
Valerie wrote:I guess skirts are the closest comparison? I'll wear a dress/skirt to formal gatherings (like funerals), but not so much in day-to-day life. A lot of other women wear them, and they have different reasons for that. Some find them more comfortable than pants, some find them more fashionable, some find that some men and women are more attracted to them, some wear them just because they want to be traditional, etc. Where it started doesn't matter as much as where it is now.


FTFY ;)


Sorry. :P


mikbuster wrote:I kind of like skirts partially because they go with pantyhose/tights and I like the way those feel. The skirt itself I'm less attached to :wink:


Trefle wrote:@mikbuster : I love skirts too. ;__; definitely love drawing them, definitely love seeing them. I wish I had the body to be able to wear them.


For the record, I like skirts and dresses because I love to have bare legs when it's warm enough (and shorts are ugly except for the very short type, which I would never wear). I also look great in them. For looking at on someone else, I think I prefer pants, unless the skirt/dress is a very pretty one in which case I suppose I'm not really looking at the person wearing it :P .
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Re: Feminism - help with finding info

Postby Evil Ben » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:33 am

Val,

I think you are on the right track, but I think better wording would be that feminism is the promotion of the feminine gender so that a woman CAN make a choice (career, for example) without comment and be paid based completely upon her skill set the same amount a man of equal skill set and time on the job would receive; would receive the same respect a man would at the same position and be given the same chance for advancement. I'm only using a career in my example, so as to not bog down the thread.

My biggest problem I have with "feminism" is the way we now add in the female gender into areas it wasn't traditionally done for. Hear me out. Take the position of Chairman. Whether the person is male or female the position should still be chairman. Calling the Chairman a Chairwoman to me is like saying "So this chick is the boss and stuff, but we don't pay her as much as we'd pay a guy, and we want everyone to know that." Another example in my favor is that female Senators are not called Senatresses, and actors that are female are more likely to be called actors instead of actresses nowadays. BTW, my favorite actor is Sandra Bullock, with that weird laugh of hers and all. And (because I love involving the Navy) all members of the Hospital Corps are called a [Hostpital] Corpsman, regardless of their gender. And to be completely truthful, the reason I don't like to say chairwoman is mostly because it takes longer to say that than it takes to say chairman. I could be working on my next word already. However, I'm totally in agreement that a woman should be paid the same as a man if her abilities are equal. Just as a man should not be paid as much as a woman if his abilities are less. In in that case the woman should be paid more. Just to clarify.
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