Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

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Re: Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

Postby Trefle » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:29 am

Would Aggie's makeup be part of the 'simplification' in Gisele's side? As in, to create more distinction between Aggie and Penny?
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Re: Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

Postby Valerie » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:55 am

Trefle wrote:Would Aggie's makeup be part of the 'simplification' in Gisele's side? As in, to create more distinction between Aggie and Penny?


Probably, though it seems the hairstyles were different enough to keep them apart.

But there was that whole mini-arc on people being confused about who was who...
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Re: Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

Postby Muttley » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:38 pm

Mini-arc? You mean a short sequence of exposition. A mini-arc is self-contradictory.
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Re: Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

Postby Valerie » Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:03 pm

Muttley wrote:Mini-arc? You mean a short sequence of exposition. A mini-arc is self-contradictory.


A thing. There was a thing. :P
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Re: Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

Postby Twitcher » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:42 pm

1. I never quite got Karen. Did parental neglect do the most to shape her worldview? Pretty people often get money and power, but just as often tend to destroy themselves in the name of the Holy Image; a lesson I don't think Karen learned even at the end of things. The ending to her arc itself was odd; even though it certainly wasn't meant as such, It felt as though the message that Penny and Aggie were trying to deliver was purely vengeance-based: "We made you, and we can break you just as easily! Try as you might, you'll never outrun... your loserdom! Ahahahahahahaa!" Imagine this last said in an overwrought faux-Austro-Germanic accent: "Penelope and Agathe haff made... a GOD! ARCHIMEDES!"

2. Full disclosure: The reason I'm more than a little sensitive about this arc is because I'm a fat frigging slob who's had "well-intentioned" remarks about her fashion choices and weight thrown at her by a mother and sister who, at that point in time, had no business throwing stones. Mom was being bossed around by a "pal" who treated her like a personal assistant; Mom needed someone to take it out on. Sis was just angry at everything.

Sis eventually stopped being angry, and she decided, "Yah know, maybe I should weigh myself, it can't be too bad, I mean, I feel alright, I just--- HOLY GOD! I DON'T WAANTOO DIEEE." Then came the regimented diet, and Mom and I watching in absolute amazement as the pounds slowly melted off of her, (and as some were methodically packed back on, on realizing she was slightly underweight.)

Mom... is working on it. So am I. I backslide. Mint Milanos are really good. I have a Problem. Well, two: Now, I am inundated with actual well-intentioned advice: "That shirt looks great on you! It's not too tight... well... it fit last week when you bought it..."

3. I hear ya, Karen.

4. "Some of us can Atkins, okay? Some of us will die at age 23 of sky high cholesterol!"

5. "I'm gonna get you fired cause I hate you and love playing the martyr! It's a fine distinction." Note that neither Penny nor Aggie are doing a thing to really help Karen...
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Re: Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

Postby CEOIII » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:42 am

re #5: And the fact that Penny essentially said, "STOP EATING, FATTY!", that doesn't enter into it at all?

It's really bothering me that Penny insulted a customer, Aggie's going to her superior over it, and everyone seems to be siding with Penny.
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Re: Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

Postby Trefle » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:27 am

[quote="Twitcher"]1. I never quite got Karen. Did parental neglect do the most to shape her worldview?[/quote]
I doubt it's her worldview as much as her...hunger. The direction for which she is going, which;
Pretty people often get money and power, but just as often tend to destroy themselves in the name of the Holy Image; a lesson I don't think Karen learned even at the end of things.

Doesn't exactly 'stop' her quest. I don't know how her life goes after she went way from the strip altogether, but one possible path is that for Karen, Penny and Aggie's victory is simply another setback in her life; the self reflection part was missed, or altogether ignored.
Another (darker) possibility is that Karen turned out to be broken, and ultimately hollow; thirsting for admiration and envy but never deeper.
The ending to her arc itself was odd; even though it certainly wasn't meant as such, It felt as though the message that Penny and Aggie were trying to deliver was purely vengeance-based: "We made you, and we can break you just as easily! Try as you might, you'll never outrun... your loserdom! Ahahahahahahaa!" Imagine this last said in an overwrought faux-Austro-Germanic accent: "Penelope and Agathe haff made... a GOD! ARCHIMEDES!"

Bwahahahha that's....amazing.
Also, I think the Pennies and Aggies were trying to simply stop the Injustice Gang. In her quest for popularity; something that even Penny is ready to throw away, she hurt her friends; Sara and Michelle, and at that moment; Aggie. It's not an enlightened desire to make Karen rethink of her life choices; it's simply to stop the damage she's causing.

Of course, not to say there aren't any factors caused by circumstances. Karen played the popularity game; so it's by taking her popularity that she is brought down (and she doesn't rise back either); so......your readings are also probable)
2. Full disclosure: The reason I'm more than a little sensitive about this arc is because I'm a fat frigging slob who's had "well-intentioned" remarks about her fashion choices and weight thrown at her by a mother and sister who, at that point in time, had no business throwing stones. Mom was being bossed around by a "pal" who treated her like a personal assistant; Mom needed someone to take it out on. Sis was just angry at everything.

Sis eventually stopped being angry, and she decided, "Yah know, maybe I should weigh myself, it can't be too bad, I mean, I feel alright, I just--- HOLY GOD! I DON'T WAANTOO DIEEE." Then came the regimented diet, and Mom and I watching in absolute amazement as the pounds slowly melted off of her, (and as some were methodically packed back on, on realizing she was slightly underweight.)

Mom... is working on it. So am I. I backslide. Mint Milanos are really good. I have a Problem. Well, two: Now, I am inundated with actual well-intentioned advice: "That shirt looks great on you! It's not too tight... well... it fit last week when you bought it..."
*hugs* I'm sorry it had to happen for you. I'm glad your situation seems to be better these days.

However, Karen's circumstances is different, I think. It's not her newfound popularity that's the problem; it's the path she walked on. Not only she dethroned the queen of choice (which for certain people is reason enough for retaliation), she had to go and personally destroy the lives of several of her enemies.

4. "Some of us can Atkins, okay? Some of us will die at age 23 of sky high cholesterol!"

I'll just assume that at that moment Atkins are on the rage.

5. "I'm gonna get you fired cause I hate you and love playing the martyr! It's a fine distinction." Note that neither Penny nor Aggie are doing a thing to really help Karen...

Precisely. That, I think, is both their character faults; they are too busy bringing down each other (well, at least Aggie is) than helping Karen; Karen....is simply the medium of choice.

@CEO : I think a lot of us here weren't exactly supportive of Penny either. However, Aggie's outrage isn't the heroic deed she (most likely) pretended it to be; and most of us simply called that out.

The way I see Aggie resonates a bit with some people I knew / seen IRL; those people who does / tries to do 'good things' for someone else, not for the sake of others themselves; but for their own self-worth. Dragon Age said it best;

Leliana: That is admirable, doing good for its own sake. Some I knew were not like that. They bragged about what they did, trying to impress others. "Oh, Lady Adele, you fed and clothed twenty orphans, how noble!" "No, no, it is nothing, Lady Clarabelle. You treated forty lepers, and gave them massages!" Like a competition, with false modesty. Sickening.

Only they said it to themselves. "Oh, look; I did this good deed! How awesome I am!"

In the case of Aggie...sometimes she did the right thing; other times it stinks of self-righteous indignation. (Contrast : Katy-Ann)

I think the action of Aggie reporting Penny itself is fine. Motivation is another thing.
/ramble
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Re: Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

Postby Valerie » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:55 am

CEOIII wrote:re #5: And the fact that Penny essentially said, "STOP EATING, FATTY!", that doesn't enter into it at all?

It's really bothering me that Penny insulted a customer, Aggie's going to her superior over it, and everyone seems to be siding with Penny.


I'm siding way more with Aggie, possible because I'm relating to her. I had that issue with a sexist coworker a while back, and people kept saying that I "got him fired" for no real reason.
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Re: Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

Postby timemonkey » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:18 pm

Of course, if Aggie wasn't harassing Penny her patience might not have been worn down to the point of snapping.
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Re: Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

Postby Twitcher » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:37 pm

Trefle wrote:Precisely. That, I think, is both their character faults; they are too busy bringing down each other (well, at least Aggie is) than helping Karen; Karen....is simply the medium of choice.

@CEO : I think a lot of us here weren't exactly supportive of Penny either. However, Aggie's outrage isn't the heroic deed she (most likely) pretended it to be; and most of us simply called that out.

The way I see Aggie resonates a bit with some people I knew / seen IRL; those people who does / tries to do 'good things' for someone else, not for the sake of others themselves; but for their own self-worth. Dragon Age said it best;

Leliana: That is admirable, doing good for its own sake. Some I knew were not like that. They bragged about what they did, trying to impress others. "Oh, Lady Adele, you fed and clothed twenty orphans, how noble!" "No, no, it is nothing, Lady Clarabelle. You treated forty lepers, and gave them massages!" Like a competition, with false modesty. Sickening.

Only they said it to themselves. "Oh, look; I did this good deed! How awesome I am!"

In the case of Aggie...sometimes she did the right thing; other times it stinks of self-righteous indignation. (Contrast : Katy-Ann)

I think the action of Aggie reporting Penny itself is fine. Motivation is another thing.
/ramble


@CEO and @Trefle. That's basically what I mean. Aggie defines herself as an activist, but in the beginning, she seemed to define that as simply 'being on the side of good', stressing doing what looked good or felt good rather than being good for it's own sake. Penny and Aggie both fall into this trap in this arc, and their worldview helps to create a monster. Aggie starts rethinking her worldview around the time we first see Katy-Ann, and Penny's is constantly challenged (also, occasionally, by Katy Ann).
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Re: Re-read week 6: The Mockingbird 1 - 5

Postby Trefle » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:16 am

That makes me think....

Hmmm. I guess both Penny and Aggie indeed created the monster that is Karen, on their own?

If Karen's dethroning of Penny didn't involve slandering Sara or exacerbating Michelle's eating disorder; I wonder if we as the reader will sympathize with Karen more?

(Notice that I don't put the underage alcohol factor; which I think is one of the gimmicks they actually use....or Karen's own shortcomings with Marshall and Helen and everyone else, which is her own personal flaw. No, if it's only a matter of popularity contest)
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