The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby CBrachyrhynchos » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:46 pm

Doc Harleen wrote:Anyway, perhaps I'm rambling a bit, but the point is that I wish society wouldn't be so quick to label people. Let them do it for themselves, if they think it is necessary at all.


I'm more and more inclined to take the radical queer perspective that attempts to categorize people beyond self-identification are heterosexist and usually serve the interests of people wanting to publish papers on their newfound unique critical dimension of sexuality.

Bi in specific seems to suffer from the death of a thousand theoretical cuts in that you're not really biesexual if you're with a man, with a woman, with someone who's not cis, if you're celibate, chaste, picky, not picky enough, or working in the sex industry. Labels overlap and can be worn for different reasons in different contexts.
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby thebitterfig » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:03 pm

CBrachyrhynchos wrote:Bi in specific seems to suffer from the death of a thousand theoretical cuts in that you're not really biesexual if you're with a man, with a woman, with someone who's not cis, if you're celibate, chaste, picky, not picky enough, or working in the sex industry.


Quoted for amazing sentence.
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby Valerie » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:16 pm

Just real quick, I've just found this. It's basically information about trans people.
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby Artemisia » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:08 pm

I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday about body dismorphic disorder, I think it's called. An example is where a person wants desperately to have their arm cut off because it feels like it shouldn't be there.

It turns out that this is not happening because someone is crazy in the head, but because their brain actually does not believe it has an arm there. So, we speculated about how the brain of a trans person might actually be mapped out to be varying degrees of female. I know that my brain believes that it should be in a completely female body. In fact, the sensations associated with being 'male' physically are all wrong for me.
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby Valerie » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:12 pm

Artemisia wrote:I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday about body dismorphic disorder, I think it's called. An example is where a person wants desperately to have their arm cut off because it feels like it shouldn't be there.

It turns out that this is not happening because someone is crazy in the head, but because their brain actually does not believe it has an arm there. So, we speculated about how the brain of a trans person might actually be mapped out to be varying degrees of female. I know that my brain believes that it should be in a completely female body. In fact, the sensations associated with being 'male' physically are all wrong for me.


Yeah, I've heard of that, actually. People were comparing it to being trans and trying to figure out whether it's a legitimate thing that we should support or if we should have mental treatments for it.

Honestly, I'm not sure. Trans people feel like they're in the wrong body, and they may or may not take steps to correct that. Meanwhile, cutting off an arm is... different. If you cut off an arm, you're limiting yourself and making it harder to do two-armed activities, right? But if the brain doesn't think there's an arm there in the first place, was it just dead weight anyway? If that's the case, you might as well get rid of it. I really don't know about that one.
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby FlyingFish » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:07 am

I recently viewed a video essay on The Matrix, specifically the "what is your mind and what is real" elements. At one point the video addressed a dropped plan to make Switch, the crewmember with the short blond hair, male in reality but female when plugged in, because she was trans* (in a world where surgery was just not an expense they could spare) and when hacking the Matrix you take on your mental image of yourself. (Given that the former Larry Wachowski is now Lana, we can see what probably inspired that story element.)

The reviewer, however, thought it would be far more interesting (and vindicating) to have someone who had been one sex in reality and the other in the Matrix due to a glitch, and had until unplugged felt so utterly in the wrong body because they literally were. That way, reality justifies the out-of-place sensation, rather than it being nothing more than in your head.
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby Valerie » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:29 pm

Man, I made this thing, and I don't want to post a new thread over it, so I'll put it here because it's related.

I can never find a clear, concise, to-the-point explanation of intersectionality, so I attempted to make one myself and put it on a FB page I started last night. (You can follow it, if you want. Hint, hint. <3)

For the Facebook-less among you, here is the intersectionality explanation:
Image

Any constructive criticism would be awesome. I wanna be sure I condensed it without losing too much flavor.
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby Trefle » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:03 pm

Content wise, I think putting a mention of personal challenges and struggles would be good; because some people do fight against the concept of privilege by citing their own personal experience and history as some sort of proof that the pattern does not exist at all.

Also, would autism (or any kind of disability) and abuse count in the privilege? As in, society tends to stand on the side of 'normal' people.

Aesthetic wise.. changing the font would be good? <_< >_>
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby mikbuster » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:13 pm

I think some of those categories have people that still suffer from what is assumed to be the privileged position. For instance, there are a lot of things that males can't be seen doing without people assuming the worst. Showing affection for a child is one area that seems to come up. Not being rich, I can't say for sure there are problems there, but a lot of people tend to think that rich people are horrible selfish people. I think race kind of depends on where you are. Where I've lived, the percentage of people that aren't Caucasian is less than 1% and there is definitely a bias against other groups. In communities that are predominately other ethnicities, even Caucasian is discriminated against. Otherwise your summary works pretty well for me :)

On another topic, I got to thinking about something Artemisia said to me a while back. My thoughts can be a bit random, so older things come back up to the surface sometimes... Anyway, I was basically asking about sexual orientation. It seems to be something that people just assume you know about yourself, which is kind of annoying. :cry: If you're not really interested in sex, what's the difference between a good friend and a spouse or partner? I was just spending some time looking into pansexuality today, and that question just kind of popped out at me.
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby Valerie » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:47 pm

Trefle wrote:Content wise, I think putting a mention of personal challenges and struggles would be good; because some people do fight against the concept of privilege by citing their own personal experience and history as some sort of proof that the pattern does not exist at all.

Also, would autism (or any kind of disability) and abuse count in the privilege? As in, society tends to stand on the side of 'normal' people.

Aesthetic wise.. changing the font would be good? <_< >_>


:P So picky. <3

Disability would also count. I was just trying to get a sample going, really. People can probably figure out the able/disabled part on their own. (Or, well, I hope they can.)

I have heard people use personal history, but that's almost a separate issue. You can be a *deep breath* rich, able-bodied, straight, white, cisgender, thin, Christian man-- give me a minute *catches breath*-- and still have personal problems. But there is a very, very slim chance that those problems are related to any of those words I said before. If your long-lost twin brother shows up and murders your wife, that has nothing to do with your economic status, race, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, religious beliefs, weight, or ability. It's just Life throwing you a curve-ball, as she tends to do.
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby Valerie » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:52 pm

mikbuster wrote:I think some of those categories have people that still suffer from what is assumed to be the privileged position. For instance, there are a lot of things that males can't be seen doing without people assuming the worst. Showing affection for a child is one area that seems to come up. Not being rich, I can't say for sure there are problems there, but a lot of people tend to think that rich people are horrible selfish people. I think race kind of depends on where you are. Where I've lived, the percentage of people that aren't Caucasian is less than 1% and there is definitely a bias against other groups. In communities that are predominately other ethnicities, even Caucasian is discriminated against. Otherwise your summary works pretty well for me :)

On another topic, I got to thinking about something Artemisia said to me a while back. My thoughts can be a bit random, so older things come back up to the surface sometimes... Anyway, I was basically asking about sexual orientation. It seems to be something that people just assume you know about yourself, which is kind of annoying. :cry: If you're not really interested in sex, what's the difference between a good friend and a spouse or partner? I was just spending some time looking into pansexuality today, and that question just kind of popped out at me.


You're right, men do have some problems, and the "not allowed to be nice to children" issue is a biggie. A lot of people will automatically assume that the guy is a predator. It's just that, when compared to things that women (and other genders) deal with on a daily basis, guys have it best.

So I guess a better way to say it is that nobody wins. Some people just don't lose as hard.

I'm not sure I can answer that romantic/platonic question. For me (somewhere between "demisexual" and "bisexual?" And "who cares?" I dunno), a spouse is someone who is a really awesome, close friend that is like the best friend ever and also you have fun sexytimes with them. But obviously that's going to be different for other people, and that's fine.
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby mikbuster » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:03 pm

I only ask hard questions, or silly ones :P

I agree that on gender, men probably have it better in a lot of respects. It's just that there's so many small things that women can have it easier on in American society. I just thought it was worth mentioning in there :)
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby Valerie » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:13 pm

mikbuster wrote:I only ask hard questions, or silly ones :P

I agree that on gender, men probably have it better in a lot of respects. It's just that there's so many small things that women can have it easier on in American society. I just thought it was worth mentioning in there :)


Oh, it definitely is. There are also some fairly large things (like the fact that it's difficult for men to be taken seriously as victims of domestic abuse). The FB page I started that the "intersectionality" image is on is an attempt to focus on those problems as well as women's problems.
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby FlyingFish » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:32 am

I can't remember where I first heard this put forth (and I'll feel very silly if it turns out I heard it from one of you), but I've heard a good argument that every sexist thing that you can say about women also implies a sexist thing about men.

Women should stay at home and take care of the kids? Men should bust their butts at work to support them.

Women are weak and need protecting? Men aren't men if they aren't strong enough to protect.

Women are sexual temptresses who use their body to get what they want? Men are sexual horndogs who can't help falling for the temptation.

And so forth.

A bonus of this perspective is that it puts feminism in a form that men are more likely to sign onto, once it's about them as well (though it still needs a better name).
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Re: The Real World QUILTBAG Discussion

Postby Valerie » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:18 pm

FlyingFish wrote:I can't remember where I first heard this put forth (and I'll feel very silly if it turns out I heard it from one of you), but I've heard a good argument that every sexist thing that you can say about women also implies a sexist thing about men.

Women should stay at home and take care of the kids? Men should bust their butts at work to support them.

Women are weak and need protecting? Men aren't men if they aren't strong enough to protect.

Women are sexual temptresses who use their body to get what they want? Men are sexual horndogs who can't help falling for the temptation.

And so forth.

A bonus of this perspective is that it puts feminism in a form that men are more likely to sign onto, once it's about them as well (though it still needs a better name).


I am always going on about this, so it's possible that one of my many rants is where you heard that. XD But I think a lot of people have caught onto that by now.

And it also goes the other way, naturally. Men can't be victims of rape/domestic abuse because women are too weak to hurt men. Men can't wear pink/do other girly things because women are inferior and it is bad to be like one in any way. Etc.
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