[4 June 12] Find a Theo already!

[Gholateg]

Interesting that she considers Theo as her safe-place. (Note that she said a Theo, not a man.) She gets a couple points back, but I still don't like her.

Took it the other way myself. She loses points for being so blatant about her bearding.
"If she could only find a clueless man to dupe into living with her and having terrible, passionless sex like I did!"

I want to send Theo a box of hookers, the poor man's probably not had a satisfying sexual escapade in 20 years.

Every Cockroach deserves a Theo.

Oh, that made my whole day... Pudding pops and colorful sweaters for all!

[Artemisia]

I want to send Theo a box of hookers, the poor man's probably not had a satisfying sexual escapade in 20 years.

You realize that Theo might be asexual?

[CEOIII]

I want to send Theo a box of hookers,

I want to send Theo Candy from Girls with Slingshots. He'd drop Iseul in nanoseconds.

I also want to send Iseul Leah. Not sure if Leah could take her, but it'd be fun to watch.

[Lia S]

But more seriously: I don't think Iseul would get this much sympathy from most people in the forum if she were a guy, cheating on his wife with another woman. Which, to my mind, reveals several levels of double standards regarding the position of both men vs women AND straight vs gay/lesbian people in relationships.

I think a heterosexual guy cheating his male partner with a woman would be more fair to compare her to, if you want the cheater to be a straight male.

Anyway, I think it makes sense to see a difference between cheating ones partner with someone the same sex as that partner and cheating with someone not the same sex as the partner (assuming the cheater is not bi- or pansexual). In the first case one is doing wrong by cheating, in the second also and more by being in a relationship with someone one cannot feel attracted to.

If Iseul had not been doing something wrong by having a relationship with Theo, she wouldn't be cheating, which makes the cheating less... relevant?

[Captain LeBubbles]

Interesting that she considers Theo as her safe-place. (Note that she said a Theo, not a man.) She gets a couple points back, but I still don't like her.

Took it the other way myself. She loses points for being so blatant about her bearding.
"If she could only find a clueless man to dupe into living with her and having terrible, passionless sex like I did!"

But we don't know that she's completely a lesbian and not, you know, bisexual, which is also an option, and a valid one since we haven't really had either confirmed, so we don't know that it was passionless. Lot's of people consider their significant other their safe place; not because they're using them as a beard, but because they feel completely protected and at ease with that person. Iseul loves Theo; Theo makes her feel safe. Her sexual desires notwithstanding.

[Zanosuke Kurosaki]

I want to send Theo Candy from Girls with Slingshots. He'd drop Iseul in nanoseconds.

That's assuming he's into Ms. "thinks punching someone in the face is a perfectly reasonable reaction". AKA, Ms. "is so out of touch with her own feelings she didn't realize she loved a man until he was marrying someone who made him happy and who she did her level best to make unhappy in the meanest of ways." I think Theo likes them a tiny bit more emotionally mature than that... x.x

[Artemisia]

Incidentally. . .I do know a couple who are in a similar situation, but reversed. The wife is very asexual, so there isn't a lot of sex in the relationship. So, I wouldn't be surprised if Theo is asexual. . .of course, what if Theo's gay?

[Freemage]

What a reprehensible person. Why is it okay for her to cheat again?

It's not. I don't remember people saying it was OK, either.
If she's really lesbian (as opposed to bisexual), and has spent the last few decades in a loveless marriage having sex with someone she isn't attracted to, then it's understandable. But understandable is not the same thing as OK.

That's very much true. However, people tend to conflate "understand" and "approve", especially in casual speech. And in Iseul's case, things're made even more confusing, since people tend to conflate "sympathise" and "approve" (which isn't all that surprising, given that a person who gives their backing to a cause is called a "sympathiser". Ah, the twists and turns of the English language). And there's definitely been a lot of sympathy for Iseul voiced in the forum.

I still say people'd be less willing to analyse and more willing to point fingers and judge if instead of Iseul, the cheating person were a heterosexual man... not that non-pointing of fingers and not judging are a bad thing.

It's because motive matters, and so does circumstance. Ignoring them leads to absurdity.

A straight guy, who cheats on his wife, is quite capable of either A: getting the physical interaction he desires at home, or B: talking through the difficulties of an open relationship with (for instance) a wife whose libido has fallen, or C: Getting a divorce and seeking out a better match.

Isuel isn't capable of any of that, not psychologically. Theo can NOT satisfy her as a sexual partner, no matter how much he wants to, or how much she wishes he could (and yes, I'm still going with the "Isuel is a lesbian, and not bi" interpretation; while we may never get a flat-out declaration on that subject, it fits her behavior and the artistic cues better). And at the same time, her indoctrination* into thinking lesbianism is evil, or at least dangerous for the woman, makes the more 'honest' approaches unavailable to her.

*: Yes, some people can rise above their cultural indoctrination and do what is right; these people are generally heroes. The thing about heroism is that if it were something everyone could accomplish, we wouldn't need the word for anything but a sandwich.

[PsychoCowboy]

For the record, although the Swedish term 'mambo' may exist, I am unconvinced that anyone has ever used it in the history of the world, and certainly not in recent years.

[timemonkey]

I want to send Theo a box of hookers,

I want to send Theo Candy from Girls with Slingshots. He'd drop Iseul in nanoseconds.

I also want to send Iseul Leah. Not sure if Leah could take her, but it'd be fun to watch.

Of course he'd drop her in seconds. He'd need both hand to carry the flamethrower to drive Candy away.

[Brook]

I don't see what Sara has to be concerned about

I think it's more that, as much as she loves her mom and vice versa, in-person encounters with her tend to be stressful. /.../ Sara's probably dreading yet another, "Sooo...met any nice boys?"

That is stressful. My own mom was "helpfully" dogging me about finding a nice boy for years (and making up every possible "explanation" for what any homosexual feelings "really" were), and it took a toll even though she was utterly civil about it. :/ I understand if Sara feels her current peace of mind getting cornered if that's what's coming up on the schedule. It only makes it harder when the person genuinely cares for you (which Iseul obviously does) because it makes it harder to ignore.

...As for "if Iseul was a man", I would feel the same about her (apparent) dishonesty toward her partner. ( imagining a similar situation with a compromise marriage and deep-seated needs elsewhere) I can sympathize with that person, but I wouldn't agree with what they choose to do about it. That's still "bad actions", though, not "a bad person", but that's my way of looking at things.
The really interesting issue here, though, (to me) isn't whether Iseul is a bad person, but what damage social pressure and early conditioning can do to people.

[oddtail]

A straight guy, who cheats on his wife, is quite capable of either A: getting the physical interaction he desires at home, or B: talking through the difficulties of an open relationship with (for instance) a wife whose libido has fallen, or C: Getting a divorce and seeking out a better match.

Isuel isn't capable of any of that, not psychologically. Theo can NOT satisfy her as a sexual partner, no matter how much he wants to, or how much she wishes he could (and yes, I'm still going with the "Isuel is a lesbian, and not bi" interpretation; while we may never get a flat-out declaration on that subject, it fits her behavior and the artistic cues better).

I dunno, this line of reasoning provides a (weak, but it still is there) implication that straight man+straight woman=automatic sexytimes. A person can be straight and still utterly un-attracted to a person of the opposite sex. Heck, doesn't much (most?) of cheating in general stem from not being fulfilled sexually? Why is it any less understandable when the person one is cheating on belongs to a category of people who technically the cheater "can be" attracted to?

Yes, some people can rise above their cultural indoctrination and do what is right; these people are generally heroes. The thing about heroism is that if it were something everyone could accomplish, we wouldn't need the word for anything but a sandwich.

I don't buy the idea that people able to overcome what's been put into their heads by culture are heroes. I consider humans to be capable of making their own decisions. Culture is important and some people can't cope with it. But pretty much everyone can act against what their culture told them to without being somehow superhuman. Heck, Iseul did when defying her family and culture. And one could make an argument that the way she rebelled or even WANTED to rebel was a result of her being indoctrinated by her culture... but if we go that route, we reach the conclusion that anyone can just shrug and say "I can't just toss my culture away". All the time.

Honestly, is it so difficult to imagine a person struggling and succeeding in overcoming their inborn or cultural limitations? I see successful acts of this kind around me, every day.

Incidentally - I don't see Iseul as lesbian, if only due to the fact that her past indicates she may have been attracted to Theo. To the point of defying her family etc. While I assume it's possible for a woman to be hetero/biromantic while being completely homosexual, my experience indicates that romantic and sexual attraction usually tend to overlap at the very least. Without an indication otherwise I sort of assume Iseul really did see something in Theo AND that she is not wired for sex the opposite way from how she is wired for romance. While possible, it'd be unusual enough to seem a bit contrived to me, compared to the possibility that Iseul has strong urges regarding homosexual relationships that she lets go BOOM! because she otherwise suppresses them.

[SomeCanadianWeirdo]

It's also possible that she's primarily lesbian, but Theo is an exceptions, a straight man she's sexually attracted to. Or for that matter she's mainly straight, except for certain women. Or anywhere in between. And the fact she married an American would seem to indicate he's a bit more than a beard. After all it would have been easier for her to find a Korean man, or even a Korean-American man, if she was willing to "lie back and think of Inchon" to escape/repress her attraction to women.

[Freemage]

A straight guy, who cheats on his wife, is quite capable of either A: getting the physical interaction he desires at home, or B: talking through the difficulties of an open relationship with (for instance) a wife whose libido has fallen, or C: Getting a divorce and seeking out a better match.

Isuel isn't capable of any of that, not psychologically. Theo can NOT satisfy her as a sexual partner, no matter how much he wants to, or how much she wishes he could (and yes, I'm still going with the "Isuel is a lesbian, and not bi" interpretation; while we may never get a flat-out declaration on that subject, it fits her behavior and the artistic cues better).

I dunno, this line of reasoning provides a (weak, but it still is there) implication that straight man+straight woman=automatic sexytimes. A person can be straight and still utterly un-attracted to a person of the opposite sex. Heck, doesn't much (most?) of cheating in general stem from not being fulfilled sexually? Why is it any less understandable when the person one is cheating on belongs to a category of people who technically the cheater "can be" attracted to?

This is where the second and third options I listed come in. For folks from specific cultures, those aren't major hurdles--the thing to do if your current partner cannot satisfy you is to find another way through--either open relationship or separation/divorce. Isuel's indoctrination, however, prevents her from even being honest with herself about her own feelings and identity. This denial is key--it locks off certain routes that might otherwise be available to her, because they only work if she first gets over the anti-lesbian stigma.

Yes, some people can rise above their cultural indoctrination and do what is right; these people are generally heroes. The thing about heroism is that if it were something everyone could accomplish, we wouldn't need the word for anything but a sandwich.

I don't buy the idea that people able to overcome what's been put into their heads by culture are heroes. I consider humans to be capable of making their own decisions. Culture is important and some people can't cope with it. But pretty much everyone can act against what their culture told them to without being somehow superhuman. Heck, Iseul did when defying her family and culture. And one could make an argument that the way she rebelled or even WANTED to rebel was a result of her being indoctrinated by her culture... but if we go that route, we reach the conclusion that anyone can just shrug and say "I can't just toss my culture away". All the time.

Honestly, is it so difficult to imagine a person struggling and succeeding in overcoming their inborn or cultural limitations? I see successful acts of this kind around me, every day.

Not difficult to imagine, no--but easy to understand why so many people fail to do so, too. Isuel, as you noted, has already had that struggle once; it may have been all she was personally capable of.

Incidentally - I don't see Iseul as lesbian, if only due to the fact that her past indicates she may have been attracted to Theo. To the point of defying her family etc. While I assume it's possible for a woman to be hetero/biromantic while being completely homosexual, my experience indicates that romantic and sexual attraction usually tend to overlap at the very least. Without an indication otherwise I sort of assume Iseul really did see something in Theo AND that she is not wired for sex the opposite way from how she is wired for romance. While possible, it'd be unusual enough to seem a bit contrived to me, compared to the possibility that Iseul has strong urges regarding homosexual relationships that she lets go BOOM! because she otherwise suppresses them.

This is where we're going to have to agree to disagree, and it really is the crux of the rest of it. From my PoV, at this point, the strongest interpretation (NOT the only one, and if I'm wrong here, the rest of my position will need to be re-evaluated) is that Isuel is a lesbian, but she's in denial about what lesbianism even is--her indoctrination was simply too great to be easily overcome. It's now compounded by the fact that she genuinely does not want to hurt Theo, who has been a 'safe harbor' for her all this time.

[Bardlp]

I've seen only a little research on the subject but if trends matter Iseul and Theo's relationship is already past the event horizon. Best outcome would have been Iseul asking her sexuality questions with Theo involved. Those relationships tend to go through a short (or no) crisis and come out the other side as an open marriage, a companionate marriage, or an amicable divorce. With the cheating anvil in the air, her best bet for preserving her marriage is going hardcore with the anti-gay stuff. Too bad about that daughter thing.