Off-topic: Race.

[Captain LeBubbles]

I am a white, heterosexual, cisgendered, middle-class southern male.

In other words, I am everything that is wrong with the world.

I am so, so sorry.

No, thinking that we can pin the blame on what's wrong with the world on a single type or group, that's what's really wrong with the world.

That said, I'm a white, mostly heterosexual, cisgendered, lower-middle class* male who has lived a good portion of his life in the South but doesn't identify as Southern. My ancestry includes Irish on my mother's side from her father (not sure of maternal grandmother, have to ask), and English-Scottish on my male genetic donor's side (haven't dug much into that family history yet, either.)

*We used to be upper-lower-middle class, but my mother retired from the military as I got out of high school, so we lost that hyphen around said time. And no one will get that joke...

I get it! We fluctuated between middle and lower middle class for most of my childhood, so I totally get that.

That's exactly like what I said in my own post- the attitude that the very act of being {insert privileged group here} is ____ist against the non-privilege groups and has to be justified. It's frustrating, and all it does is slow down progress because it tends to get people defensive, and unwilling to listen. It's kinda like how Val put it in the OP, how there's a legitimate concern about minority-exclusive scholarships, but two different ways to put it- one that is just shouting about 'those people' and makes the speaker look like an ass, and one that is much more reasonable and easier to address and doesn't get everyone's hackles up. I know that I'm far more likely to listen and consider the situation rationally when it's pointed out in a way that doesn't stop short of accusing me of personally attempting to re-enslave the entire black population.

(Example: "You know, your cast of characters don't have any minorities in it. Maybe you should consider changing that, so that you can appeal to a wider audience, rather than alienate a pretty big chunk of your potential readers" is a lot easier to listen to and take seriously than "zOMG YOU DON'T HAZ BLACK PEOPLE YOU RACIST PIG YOU". I mean, how do you even respond to that?)

For the record, I'm not saying racism isn't a thing. It is. It's a big thing, and we should probably get round to fixing that because it's annoying all round. And I'm not saying that it shouldn't make people angry, because it should. Because no one really wins in the end. I guess what I'm saying is kinda the same thing I was saying about people who exhibit homophobic attitudes- it's something that gets through a lot easier with a rational argument (and the patience of a saint and the occasional The Reason You Suck speech) a lot easier than lots of shouting about how wrong they are. Especially if the person in question is on that side to begin with, they just occasionally forget to consider their own privilege in a given situation. ("Well, I don't see anything wrong with my cast! I can identify with all of them!" "Well, yes, you would, because all of them come from the same background as you. But someone from a different background wouldn't- that's why a diverse cast is best." "Oh! Well since you put it that way... yeah, I get that." Exaggerated simplicity, of course, but if only it were always so easy.)

[Otaking]

Looks over the long list of white people burdened by collective guilt trying to spice up their lineage and/or apologize.

I'm a cracker. So what?

Morgan Freeman: Stop talking about it.

[Kamino Neko]

"Up-here"= Northeast/New England suburb? Because these places are some of the most racist places I have heard of and it still holds up to this day unfortunately despite this place being considered bluest of the blue states...

Up-here == midsized Ontario (Canada) city. There's generally not a lot of racism that I've noted (but, you know, white as white can be, so it may just be that I've never encountered that many who thought I was racist and decided to share theirs with me), but when I do encounter it, it's holy-shit casual comments that I can hardly believe someone said it.

I have had people think I was racist, occasionally - mostly the above-mentioned people who think I won't object when they say stuff like 'I want to join the KKK', or 'bomb the towelheads into oblivion' (sadly, I've never actually been in the position where I could)...there was one that actually made me feel terrible. A girl I went to HS with (black), one day apologized to me, more or less out of the blue. Turns out when we'd met, she'd thought I was racist, because I was a bit cold to her. She'd eventually realized I was just shy. It's kind of depressing that, really, that the world is such that her misapprehension was understandable.

[Valerie]

Looks over the long list of white people burdened by collective guilt trying to spice up their lineage and/or apologize.

I'm a cracker. So what?

Morgan Freeman: Stop talking about it.

I really disagreed with him on that. Ignoring a problem will not make it go away.

And I am a honkey. We are different, you and I. We shouldn't ignore those differences, but acknowledge and accept them as valid. You make cracking sounds and I make honking sounds, but surely we can work together despite that.

[Captain LeBubbles]

Looks over the long list of white people burdened by collective guilt trying to spice up their lineage and/or apologize.

AHAHAHAHA. Trust me, if I was trying to spice up my lineage, I wouldn't be bringing up my black/mulatto (jury's still out on that one; the records from the 188o's were understandably a bit poorly kept) great-ancestor- I've got way better. Just that what I've got isn't relevant to the conversation.

[Valerie]

I'll be honest, I do think it's kind of funny when white people are like "I'm German/Irish/English mix." Those are all white. We're talking about race, not the nationality of your ancestors...

(This would apply to other races, but I don't think I've ever seen a non-white person do it.)

[Otaking]

I really disagreed with him on that. Ignoring a problem will not make it go away.

And I am a honkey. We are different, you and I. We shouldn't ignore those differences, but acknowledge and accept them as valid. You make cracking sounds and I make honking sounds, but surely we can work together despite that.

I'm changing my race to honkey. I forgot how much cooler it was.

Quick try not thinking about the flesh eating dust mites breeding in your keyboard underneath your fingers.

Identify the racism in the following sentences: I hate people who wear their pants slung below their ass. I hate people who answer the door in a stained wifebeater.

[Valerie]

The racism comes in at the point when my brain says "That is the stereotype for _____ people," but your sentence and its likely intended meaning are not racist. It's an indication of society's problems with race that my mind goes straight there. This is because society doesn't talk about racism, but still throws stereotypes around like there's no tomorrow.

[LookingIn]

"Up-here"= Northeast/New England suburb? Because these places are some of the most racist places I have heard of and it still holds up to this day unfortunately despite this place being considered bluest of the blue states...

Up-here == midsized Ontario (Canada) city. There's generally not a lot of racism that I've noted (but, you know, white as white can be, so it may just be that I've never encountered that many who thought I was racist and decided to share theirs with me), but when I do encounter it, it's holy-shit casual comments that I can hardly believe someone said it.

I have had people think I was racist, occasionally - mostly the above-mentioned people who think I won't object when they say stuff like 'I want to join the KKK', or 'bomb the towelheads into oblivion' (sadly, I've never actually been in the position where I could)...there was one that actually made me feel terrible. A girl I went to HS with (black), one day apologized to me, more or less out of the blue. Turns out when we'd met, she'd thought I was racist, because I was a bit cold to her. She'd eventually realized I was just shy. It's kind of depressing that, really, that the world is such that her misapprehension was understandable.

Well that explains the misunderstanding, different country but very similar sounding experiences to what I have encountered with many of the older folks down here.

[LookingIn]

I'll be honest, I do think it's kind of funny when white people are like "I'm German/Irish/English mix." Those are all white. We're talking about race, not the nationality of your ancestors...

(This would apply to other races, but I don't think I've ever seen a non-white person do it.)

Here non-whites do it a lot worse than whites, especially the Latinos. You aren't just Latino you are Puerto Rican, Cuban, Mexican, Dominican, Guatemalan, Honduran etc....and the national rivalries ran VERY deep, with racial slurs slung between them left and right without a care for who hears them. I heard "wet back" used more times than I ever want to hear, my uncle's family used it all the time whenever they were talking about their neighbors.

[Valerie]

When I lived in California, there were some Hispanics that had no problem with "beaner," which I think is supposed to be at least mildly offensive, right?
(I'm just an ignorant southern white girl. I don't know these things. That's why I make threads like this. D: )
I assumed it was an in-group privilege thing, since they would use it playfully.

I mean, getting mad and using it... That's like if I got mad at Otaking and called him a cracker (which he is, no matter how much he thinks he's a honkey ).

[Otaking]

That's like if I got mad at Otaking and called him a cracker (which he is, no matter how much he thinks he's a honkey ).

Now you're just trying to butter me up.

[Freemage]

I'll be honest, I do think it's kind of funny when white people are like "I'm German/Irish/English mix." Those are all white. We're talking about race, not the nationality of your ancestors...

(This would apply to other races, but I don't think I've ever seen a non-white person do it.)

Here non-whites do it a lot worse than whites, especially the Latinos. You aren't just Latino you are Puerto Rican, Cuban, Mexican, Dominican, Guatemalan, Honduran etc....and the national rivalries ran VERY deep, with racial slurs slung between them left and right without a care for who hears them. I heard "wet back" used more times than I ever want to hear, my uncle's family used it all the time whenever they were talking about their neighbors.

I'll confirm this, though yes, other racial phenotypes do it, too--amongst other things, I've encountered a few different splits in the black community in America (between recent immigrants and slave-descendants is one, and the 'darkness gauge' being another, and Haitian-Americans have a whole separate set of issues they have to deal with). And of course, once upon a time, those irrelevant differences between different 'white' groups was considered almost as important as skin-tone. German-, Irish-, Polish- and Italian-Americans used to hate in-group just as strongly as they did other races.

In answer to the poll: North Sea mutt, here--start in Bavaria, and work west to Scotland and north to the Arctic Circle (no, seriously, I've been to the family farm in Norway), and you get my entire family tree.

That said, as with almost any discussion of privilege, it's frustrating as hell to have to deal with the problem of race and have folks get defensive about it because they don't understand that the word "racist" is a reference to systemic racism, which is VASTLY different from racial bigotry. And LeBubbles, I know you meant well with the positive approach you suggested (ie, the "add more diversity to the cast to appeal to a wider audience" thing--but that's a spot-fix that then must be repeated for every instance; systemic racism, like other other privilege forms, needs to ultimately be addressed systemically, or it just creeps back as soon as you take your eye off the ball).

BTW, historically, racism has had different manifestations in the north and south, and this goes back to the pre-civil war days. Black abolitionists used to complain that it was easier for a free black man to get a job as a skilled laborer in the South than it was for the same man to get one in Boston or New York. People are, generally, quite adept at fucking up, and we continue to develop new means to do so. (Dan Savage once quipped that the people down South were the nicest folks to ever tell him he was going to burn in Hell.)

My own, personal experience with racism is... complicated. In the area I grew up (near south suburbs of Chicago, during the era where they were 'changing over'--going from almost entirely white to almost entirely black, in a very short period of time), race was a real and palpable THING. My (seven year older) brother's freshman year at high school was the last year they had actual race-riots. By that time, they had a set policy in place, and so as soon as trouble broke out, a call went over the PA system, and students had 10 seconds to get into ANY classroom, before the teachers would lock the doors; if you were still in the hallway then, you were generally trapped between the rioters and the police.)

By the time I got to that same school, it was a non-issue, sort of. You stuck to your own kind, but open conflict was to be avoided. You could even casually interact with the 'other' race (and yeah, from a school of over 2000 students, I can count the number of non-black, non-caucasian students that I knew by name on one hand--literally), but you didn't hang out with them much. Dating cross-race was something you didn't do unless you both were willing to be alienated from EVERYONE.

This bizarre split-reality was probably most prominent in the usage of the n-word. This was early in the age of rap and Eddie Murphy's career, so black kids were already comfortably spouting it at one another. However, yes, if you were white and used it, it was pretty much a declaration that you WANTED to fight. It wasn't used casually--it was very much a loaded gun that you picked up because you wanted to hurt the target as badly as you could. That is--if you used it as a word unto itself. However, it was very casually used as a goddamned prefix. You'd run it together with another word, to describe some specific trait that was supposedly 'black', and that would be considered downright acceptable usage. As one example: An N*-slide was when you drove your car in such a way as to slice across four lanes of traffic without signalling. I did say this was my experience with racism, right?

So now when I hear equally racist, but much more subtly crafted variations (like Otaking's query about pants showing the ass and stained wife-beaters, and hey, isn't that one just a double-dip in just how much we have yet to evolve), i just want to set my head down. Sure, we may not be using the n-word there anymore, but it takes a special type of denial to insist that such comments aren't about race.

[Pink Freud]

Can I be a bobo?

[Otaking]

So now when I hear equally racist, but much more subtly crafted variations (like Otaking's query about pants showing the ass and stained wife-beaters, and hey, isn't that one just a double-dip in just how much we have yet to evolve), i just want to set my head down. Sure, we may not be using the n-word there anymore, but it takes a special type of denial to insist that such comments aren't about race.

Those comments are only racist if the viewer makes them so. Anyone of any race can (and frequently do) wear any pants or wifebeater. If the racism wasn't occurring in your own mind those comments couldn't be used to hurt someone's feelings...in a stereotypical sense that is..unless you specifically wear your pants down past your ass or answer the door in a dirty wifebeater yourself. They are neutrally worded, and I specifically worded them that way which was completely the point. Society is you not 'other people'.

That's why I still like Mr. Freeman's logic. When we finally get past all the racial dialogue and blame and counter blame we can be free to hate people for regular everyday reasons without being accused of being racist, such as being classless clowns who walk down the street with their ass hanging out of their pants or who answer the door in a stained wifebeater. Does it make me a racist to find certain habits disgusting/classless/stupid? Ice T's a great actor nowadays, but fuck him for helping to popularize shit that started in prison so kids could aspire to being criminals. Is that racist?

and hey, isn't that one just a double-dip in just how much we have yet to evolve)

Apparently you find those habits distasteful too, are you a racist for that?

I included the wifebeater one for balance in fact because I've seen (SEEN not imagined as a stereotype) more whites doing that than anyone else probably because I used to work for a water company where my duties including issuing the pay-or-we-cut-you-off notices to homes in areas which included a few trailer parks. I've seen members of a lot of races walk around with their pants down past their ass at this point and I find them all equally moronic.

I'll give you another one: I hate people that throw their cans of Bud & Miller Light into the grass by my mailbox.