OT: Heterophobia- QUILTBAG Anti-Straight Prejudices

[grimmi05]

but that is just it, they have a fear, and sometime we can't explain fear. Art has a fear of men, a fear she is working on, how is that different from somebody having a fear or not feeling comfortable with seeing two guys or two girls kissing in front of them. they might be working on it or they might not, you don't know. How is some who is homophobic and trying to be tolerent but still feel uncomfortable around it any different then someone working on a fear of men or a fear of heteros, or a fear of any thing. If someone attacks you, yes fight back. but if some one is asking you to stop something because they are not comfortable seeing it, then how is that a bad thing? they are being polite, they are not yelling, just asking you to stop something.

[Valerie]

but that is just it, they have a fear, and sometime we can't explain fear. Art has a fear of men, a fear she is working on, how is that different from somebody having a fear or not feeling comfortable with seeing two guys or two girls kissing in front of them. they might be working on it or they might not, you don't know. How is some who is homophobic and trying to be tolerent but still feel uncomfortable around it any different then someone working on a fear of men or a fear of heteros, or a fear of any thing. If someone attacks you, yes fight back. but if some one is asking you to stop something because they are not comfortable seeing it, then how is that a bad thing? they are being polite, they are not yelling, just asking you to stop something.

The difference is that gay couples are often asked to "be less gay" in public. It's institutionalized. Society finds gay people to be "different" and "gross," and many gay people are asked to stop holding hands because "my children don't need to be exposed to such a sinful life."

If that were not the case, and a person with a genuine phobia (though I couldn't possibly understand what they'd be afraid of, myself) asked them to stop holding hands, it would be a different story.

If we're still using Art as an example, she doesn't ask men to stop being men. She just avoids them. She (probably) doesn't say "You're a man and that makes me uncomfortable, please leave." That would be unreasonable, unless he specifically asked her about it.

[grimmi05]

but that is just it, they have a fear, and sometime we can't explain fear. Art has a fear of men, a fear she is working on, how is that different from somebody having a fear or not feeling comfortable with seeing two guys or two girls kissing in front of them. they might be working on it or they might not, you don't know. How is some who is homophobic and trying to be tolerent but still feel uncomfortable around it any different then someone working on a fear of men or a fear of heteros, or a fear of any thing. If someone attacks you, yes fight back. but if some one is asking you to stop something because they are not comfortable seeing it, then how is that a bad thing? they are being polite, they are not yelling, just asking you to stop something.

The difference is that gay couples are often asked to "be less gay" in public. It's institutionalized. Society finds gay people to be "different" and "gross," and many gay people are asked to stop holding hands because "my children don't need to be exposed to such a sinful life."

If that were not the case, and a person with a genuine phobia (though I couldn't possibly understand what they'd be afraid of, myself) asked them to stop holding hands, it would be a different story.

If we're still using Art as an example, she doesn't ask men to stop being men. She just avoids them. She (probably) doesn't say "You're a man and that makes me uncomfortable, please leave." That would be unreasonable, unless he specifically asked her about it.

There could be numerous reasons. maybe some one was molested as a kid. or it might not have a reason, fear is fear. People can be legitimately afraid of some pretty odd stuff.

or like I said it might be a comfort thing. I don't like PDA of any type, it makes me feel uncomfortable. I have asked people to tone it down a little before, sorry but I don't like people with their tongues down each other throats and having sex out in public. call me old fashioned, but I don't, its just me.

[Valerie]

sorry but I don't like people with their tongues down each other throats and having sex out in public. call me old fashioned, but I don't, its just me.

I find this hilarious. Not that it makes you uncomfortable, but that people think this happens as often as it does. I've never seen anything like that.

But my point was that homophobia is so ingrained in society that asking a gay couple to stop kissing is common. That's where the problem comes in. I can go outside and smooch on my husband all day long and no one would say a thing. But if he were my wife instead, a lot of people would stare or complain or ask me to stop because it's "gross" or "unnatural."

If someone has an actual fear, that's one thing. But in a society where homophobia is the norm, how can we tell which people have a genuine fear and which people are just grossed out by two men holding hands?

[grimmi05]

sorry but I don't like people with their tongues down each other throats and having sex out in public. call me old fashioned, but I don't, its just me.

I find this hilarious. Not that it makes you uncomfortable, but that people think this happens as often as it does. I've never seen anything like that.

But my point was that homophobia is so ingrained in society that asking a gay couple to stop kissing is common. That's where the problem comes in. I can go outside and smooch on my husband all day long and no one would say a thing. But if he were my wife instead, a lot of people would stare or complain or ask me to stop because it's "gross" or "unnatural."

If someone has an actual fear, that's one thing. But in a society where homophobia is the norm, how can we tell which people have a genuine fear and which people are just grossed out by two men holding hands?

Well I said that earlier, if you are attacked, fight back, but if some one is polite about it don't judge them and dis miss it as homophobia or as hate. if you do, you are just as bad as the people who hate gays because they are gay

[Valerie]

Well I said that earlier, if you are attacked, fight back, but if some one is polite about it don't judge them and dis miss it as homophobia or as hate. if you do, you are just as bad as the people who hate gays because they are gay

Again, it's the norm, so the default assumption would be "this person is asking me to stop because he/she hates gays." So yeah, actually, most of the time dismissing it as general hate would be correct. Now, if the person stated that he/she was uncomfortable with this because of something that happened before (like molestation or something), it would be considerate of the gay couple to tone it down a little. But they are under no obligation to ask, and, statistically, they would not be incorrect in assuming that the person is just hatin'.

[grimmi05]

Well I said that earlier, if you are attacked, fight back, but if some one is polite about it don't judge them and dis miss it as homophobia or as hate. if you do, you are just as bad as the people who hate gays because they are gay

Again, it's the norm, so the default assumption would be "this person is asking me to stop because he/she hates gays." So yeah, actually, most of the time dismissing it as general hate would be correct. Now, if the person stated that he/she was uncomfortable with this because of something that happened before (like molestation or something), it would be considerate of the gay couple to tone it down a little. But they are under no obligation to ask, and, statistically, they would not be incorrect in assuming that the person is just hatin'.

yeah they wouldn't be, but you know what they say about assuming. Like I said don't judge, you don't know what has happened in their life, just like they don't know what has happened in your life.

[Valerie]

Regardless, we've gone completely the other direction. This thread is supposed to be about heterophobia.

[Otaking]

I find this hilarious. Not that it makes you uncomfortable, but that people think this happens as often as it does. I've never seen anything like that.

OOo we've got to get you out of the house more. I'm a total hermit and I've seen plenty. Well, I lived in SF too. Plenty of guys at least holding hands or making out on the street. Really though I can't remember any of them that didn't have enough class to do it discreetly. By discreetly I mean just kissing and not a vulgar display of some sort. Then there's the Gay Pride Parade and Halloween and well, just don't be there at those times if these things bother you.

In fact the one time I have been bothered by a PDA was in a mexican restaurant in Texas, drunk guy and his girlfriend nearly having sex at their table. Not really an atmosphere conducive toward this sort of thing. Then of course crazy things in nightclubs, but those don't really count as PDA.

As far as heterophobia directed toward me, the closest I've gotten is angry and/or jealous stares in areas frequented by militant lesbians such as some cafes in certain parts of SF, around Berkeley, in certain "neutral with queer leaning nightclubs" and once by a woman who was showing us a property. I was with an ex-gf at the time who had some semi-closeted lesbian leanings (or so everyone I describe her to tells me) and she caught some interest. I don't know if that would qualify as outright heterophobia though. Maybe I was called a breeder one time, I can't remember. I tend to ignore stupid and overly judgmental people. I caught about the same amount of 'nice shoes' myself even though I was totally oblivious to what this meant which led to some funnehs.

In SF, if you asked guys on the street to stop you would likely catch some hate. The norm there is this is ok and this is their patch that they've carved out for themselves and they would (justifiably IMO) get a tad defensive about it. This is circa 2000-2007 anyway when I still lived there. I keep hearing it's a hellhole of bums on the street now.

To me it just all boils down to xenophobia. It's ALL xeno-. It's a biological defensive mechanism ingrained in your psyche. Red ants kill black ones. Black ants kill black ants from the other hill.

You see someone behaving not according to your culture's rules, no matter where you are from and you have an instinctive reaction. You have a duty as a thinking person, who wants to behave better than an animal, to grab your xenophobia by the neck and sling it around like a rubber chicken and then cast it out of yourself where all your other trashy impulses should go (well, maybe not the fun ones) and you can then have a nice calm discussion with whoever and maybe find out they are not so different after all.

[FlyingFish]

If someone has an actual fear, that's one thing. But in a society where homophobia is the norm, how can we tell which people have a genuine fear and which people are just grossed out by two men holding hands?

Although we've wandered away from the topic a bit, since I brought up the matter in the first place I feel I need to close it with an additional distinction. Art does not insist (I assume) that men leave the room when she enters; if the situation gets too much for her, she leaves. The classmate I mentioned earlier does not tell homosexuals to knock it off when he's around; if it bothers him, he leaves.

That is the difference between a regretted phobia and an unrepentant one: insistence that everyone else adopt to you instead of the other way around. I am fine with regretted phobias; people with those are trying to change. The unrepentant, of any kind, fall into the aforementioned "asshole" category.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Personal opinions aside, the kiss is perhaps the most celebrated act of romantic affection in Western culture. It's been sculpted by Rodin and painted by Klimt. In the United States, it's the symbol of V-J Day. It's a central part of cinema, and is a transformative act for the conclusion of many fairy tales. "You may now kiss the bride" overshadows the reception line as the conclusion of a wedding ceremony. What makes kiss-ins brilliant is that we're talking about an act that wouldn't even get you a PG rating in the last few decades, that suddenly becomes racy once it's done by two men or two women.