OT: Heterophobia- QUILTBAG Anti-Straight Prejudices

[strangled]

To be honest, I don't think I would have any patience with someone acting homophobic in any form, even if they had some excuse like they're "trying to be more tolerant". If someone told me not to hold hands with someone else in front of them, I'd probably spit on their shoes. I dunno, after years of putting up with crap, I wouldn't be able to just take someone by the hand & tell them it's okay that they have a fundamental fear of me just because I kiss girls sometimes. That's like if someone was acting super-duper racist & said they were trying to be better about not being afraid of (insert race). They better get smart real fast afore I get ready to gently smack their forearm in disgust (because I don't advocate violence, usually).

But that is different than a phobia of men. When one person is in a position of privilege (someone who is white, &/or male, &/or heterosexual, &/or cis), they have no goddang reason to act that way. White cis-gendered straight men are at the top of the food chain, so to speak. Women are one of the many marginalized groups that are harmed by the patriarchy, & we have good reason to fear the idea of men that our culture has blown up into this ugly & twisted thing. So it does not surprise me that some have experienced a full-blown phobia that interferes with their relationships. It really sucks that this comes as no surprise, but when you sit & think about it, the whole thing is just really screwed up.

So, yeah. I dunno. People in positions of power don't deserve any extra-special treatment when it comes to their prejudices from those in marginalized groups, is what I think.

[Louisa]

I always erred on the side of caution, too, when it comes to physical intimacy. I'm the person who always asks if it's okay to kiss a woman before actually doing it.

I tend to think this is preferable to forcing a kiss on a horrified woman who doesn't want it. Plus, the hottest pick-up line I've ever received was "do you mind if I kiss you?" It actually took me a while to realise that the person in question was asking because she genuinely cared about my consent, rather than just because it was a good line.

(I recently had a first date with an incredibly cute girl (insert squeeing about how cute and generally awesome this girl is), who I think decided I was massively dorky because I asked permission before holding her hand. She still seems to like me despite my dorkiness though )

[FlyingFish]

I always erred on the side of caution, too, when it comes to physical intimacy. I'm the person who always asks if it's okay to kiss a woman before actually doing it.

I tend to think this is preferable to forcing a kiss on a horrified woman who doesn't want it. Plus, the hottest pick-up line I've ever received was "do you mind if I kiss you?" It actually took me a while to realise that the person in question was asking because she genuinely cared about my consent, rather than just because it was a good line.

(I recently had a first date with an incredibly cute girl (insert squeeing about how cute and generally awesome this girl is), who I think decided I was massively dorky because I asked permission before holding her hand. She still seems to like me despite my dorkiness though )

I would imagine (correct me if I'm wrong) that homosexual contact can have the additional factor of "I don't even know if she likes girls/he likes boys", which would warrant additional caution and/or permission. If you're already on a date, of course, that question has been answered, but if you're still at the flirting stage, you might not be sure.

[AmberBeth84]

I always erred on the side of caution, too, when it comes to physical intimacy. I'm the person who always asks if it's okay to kiss a woman before actually doing it.

I tend to think this is preferable to forcing a kiss on a horrified woman who doesn't want it. Plus, the hottest pick-up line I've ever received was "do you mind if I kiss you?" It actually took me a while to realise that the person in question was asking because she genuinely cared about my consent, rather than just because it was a good line.

(I recently had a first date with an incredibly cute girl (insert squeeing about how cute and generally awesome this girl is), who I think decided I was massively dorky because I asked permission before holding her hand. She still seems to like me despite my dorkiness though )

I would imagine (correct me if I'm wrong) that homosexual contact can have the additional factor of "I don't even know if she likes girls/he likes boys", which would warrant additional caution and/or permission. If you're already on a date, of course, that question has been answered, but if you're still at the flirting stage, you might not be sure.

That's a good point, but I asked my ex-wife after our second date in high school when I was still presenting as male.

[Trefle]

OK... with this long post and the "ableism" thread I started earlier, I think I used up my yearly quota of long-winded, ranty, controversial thoughts. I hope no-one is offended or feels attacked, and I hope I expressed myself clearly. If anything I said could have been phrased better *or* if I went too far somewhere and shouldn't have said something, let me know.

NO, I think this is a great thing you'd said here. I know a bit about 'empathy' using rational thoughts rather than emotional (I'm more 'perspective' than 'rationale', though), and yes; the 'how' vs 'why' differences has boggled me sometimes. Thank you for voicing it, in a way far more eloquent than I would.

Some people don't like 'why', though; for some reason.

Trying to describe the workings of my own mind, I believe I can distinguish at least between the three notions of finding someone's appearance aesthetically pleasing (much the way I imagine an artist would), of finding their appearance "hot" (i. e. erotically stimulating) and of feeling emotionally/romantically attracted to the person. The three, while clearly correlated, can just as clearly occur independent of each other to a certain degree. On the other hand, feeling sexually attracted to a person seems to be not an indepenent variable of its own, but rather to result from the combination of finding that person both "hot" and romantically attractive.

Hear, hear! I also believe I can distinguish the notions..
but sometimes I found my standards different than others. i.e what I'd call pretty isn't their pretty, and so on.
Being a gay artist who like to draw women also increased my ability to distinguish women...otherwise I think I'll go Henohenomoheji on you all, girls. D: Especially the boobs. WHY WHY WHY-- yeah, it didn't attract me. Simple as that.

As far as straight prejudices; I tend to go with the privilege. Socially-based privileges. The security, the freedom, the easiness to be morally 'virtuous' by just 'oh, I'm fine with gays' while us gays HAVE TO consider the straights (or the majority, granted) before taking ourselves into account. I'm not sure I can get scot-free by saying 'oh, I'm fine with straights, but DO NOT SHOW ME YOUR HET LOVING NOOO Iamuncomfortable' (which, in a way, I am. Het sex and/or female sexual organs mostly make me '....ew.'. I'd been putting off anatomy lessons before because of it.)

[Louisa]

I always erred on the side of caution, too, when it comes to physical intimacy. I'm the person who always asks if it's okay to kiss a woman before actually doing it.

I tend to think this is preferable to forcing a kiss on a horrified woman who doesn't want it. Plus, the hottest pick-up line I've ever received was "do you mind if I kiss you?" It actually took me a while to realise that the person in question was asking because she genuinely cared about my consent, rather than just because it was a good line.

(I recently had a first date with an incredibly cute girl (insert squeeing about how cute and generally awesome this girl is), who I think decided I was massively dorky because I asked permission before holding her hand. She still seems to like me despite my dorkiness though )

I would imagine (correct me if I'm wrong) that homosexual contact can have the additional factor of "I don't even know if she likes girls/he likes boys", which would warrant additional caution and/or permission. If you're already on a date, of course, that question has been answered, but if you're still at the flirting stage, you might not be sure.

This, plus public displays of affection between two people of the same gender always carries some risk of turning you into a target - another reason why extra caution/permission might be needed.

[Freemage]

OK... with this long post and the "ableism" thread I started earlier, I think I used up my yearly quota of long-winded, ranty, controversial thoughts. I hope no-one is offended or feels attacked, and I hope I expressed myself clearly. If anything I said could have been phrased better *or* if I went too far somewhere and shouldn't have said something, let me know.

NO, I think this is a great thing you'd said here. I know a bit about 'empathy' using rational thoughts rather than emotional (I'm more 'perspective' than 'rationale', though), and yes; the 'how' vs 'why' differences has boggled me sometimes. Thank you for voicing it, in a way far more eloquent than I would.

Some people don't like 'why', though; for some reason.

Trying to describe the workings of my own mind, I believe I can distinguish at least between the three notions of finding someone's appearance aesthetically pleasing (much the way I imagine an artist would), of finding their appearance "hot" (i. e. erotically stimulating) and of feeling emotionally/romantically attracted to the person. The three, while clearly correlated, can just as clearly occur independent of each other to a certain degree. On the other hand, feeling sexually attracted to a person seems to be not an indepenent variable of its own, but rather to result from the combination of finding that person both "hot" and romantically attractive.

Hear, hear! I also believe I can distinguish the notions..
but sometimes I found my standards different than others. i.e what I'd call pretty isn't their pretty, and so on.
Being a gay artist who like to draw women also increased my ability to distinguish women...otherwise I think I'll go Henohenomoheji on you all, girls. D: Especially the boobs. WHY WHY WHY-- yeah, it didn't attract me. Simple as that.

As far as straight prejudices; I tend to go with the privilege. Socially-based privileges. The security, the freedom, the easiness to be morally 'virtuous' by just 'oh, I'm fine with gays' while us gays HAVE TO consider the straights (or the majority, granted) before taking ourselves into account. I'm not sure I can get scot-free by saying 'oh, I'm fine with straights, but DO NOT SHOW ME YOUR HET LOVING NOOO Iamuncomfortable' (which, in a way, I am. Het sex and/or female sexual organs mostly make me '....ew.'. I'd been putting off anatomy lessons before because of it.)

Heh. I post a lot about Natalie Reed's column in these threads, mainly because she's so good at getting the point across. This one's for trans people, but I'm sure a similar list would be viable for gays, blacks, etc: If Trans Talked Like Cis.

[svenman]

But that is different than a phobia of men. When one person is in a position of privilege (someone who is white, &/or male, &/or heterosexual, &/or cis), they have no goddang reason to act that way. White cis-gendered straight men are at the top of the food chain, so to speak. Women are one of the many marginalized groups that are harmed by the patriarchy, & we have good reason to fear the idea of men that our culture has blown up into this ugly & twisted thing. So it does not surprise me that some have experienced a full-blown phobia that interferes with their relationships. It really sucks that this comes as no surprise, but when you sit & think about it, the whole thing is just really screwed up.

So, yeah. I dunno. People in positions of power don't deserve any extra-special treatment when it comes to their prejudices from those in marginalized groups, is what I think.

Strangled, I guess you very probably didn't mean it that way, but on first reading this almost came across to me as "white cis-gendered straight men deserve no sympathy for anything, ever, because they're privileged".

I'm white*, cis-gendered, male and heterosexual**. Is my life easier than it were if I weren't all of these things? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean I don't have any struggles of my own to face, they just aren't related to my sexual orientation or gender identity. At least up to this point in my life *knocks on wood*.

To tie this little rant back to the topic of this thread, there is obviously resentment among non-straight people against straights for being privileged. But does this translate into downright prejudice? Like "straights always have it easy just because they're straight, without even deserving it"? I'm just conjecturing here, because I'm not speaking of stuff I've actually experienced or even read (at least not that I consciously remember), but maybe this is at least a direction worth investigating if we're really looking for anti-straight prejudice.

*Which in itself doesn't carry quite the same meaning in terms of privilege here as in North America, but I also pass as an ethnic German, which amounts to a pretty similar effect in the end.
**Or at least close enough that the difference is insignificant in practical terms.

[grimmi05]

To be honest, I don't think I would have any patience with someone acting homophobic in any form, even if they had some excuse like they're "trying to be more tolerant". If someone told me not to hold hands with someone else in front of them, I'd probably spit on their shoes. I dunno, after years of putting up with crap, I wouldn't be able to just take someone by the hand & tell them it's okay that they have a fundamental fear of me just because I kiss girls sometimes. That's like if someone was acting super-duper racist & said they were trying to be better about not being afraid of (insert race). They better get smart real fast afore I get ready to gently smack their forearm in disgust (because I don't advocate violence, usually).

But that is different than a phobia of men. When one person is in a position of privilege (someone who is white, &/or male, &/or heterosexual, &/or cis), they have no goddang reason to act that way. White cis-gendered straight men are at the top of the food chain, so to speak. Women are one of the many marginalized groups that are harmed by the patriarchy, & we have good reason to fear the idea of men that our culture has blown up into this ugly & twisted thing. So it does not surprise me that some have experienced a full-blown phobia that interferes with their relationships. It really sucks that this comes as no surprise, but when you sit & think about it, the whole thing is just really screwed up.

So, yeah. I dunno. People in positions of power don't deserve any extra-special treatment when it comes to their prejudices from those in marginalized groups, is what I think.

So white, hetero, cisgendered man can't work on their prejudices and fears and they have to suck it up and deal with it. but if you have a problem with a white, hetero, cis couple kissing and you tell them to stop because it makes you uncomfortable, you have every right to?

something doesn't seem right about that.

[strangled]

To be honest, I don't think I would have any patience with someone acting homophobic in any form, even if they had some excuse like they're "trying to be more tolerant". If someone told me not to hold hands with someone else in front of them, I'd probably spit on their shoes. I dunno, after years of putting up with crap, I wouldn't be able to just take someone by the hand & tell them it's okay that they have a fundamental fear of me just because I kiss girls sometimes. That's like if someone was acting super-duper racist & said they were trying to be better about not being afraid of (insert race). They better get smart real fast afore I get ready to gently smack their forearm in disgust (because I don't advocate violence, usually).

But that is different than a phobia of men. When one person is in a position of privilege (someone who is white, &/or male, &/or heterosexual, &/or cis), they have no goddang reason to act that way. White cis-gendered straight men are at the top of the food chain, so to speak. Women are one of the many marginalized groups that are harmed by the patriarchy, & we have good reason to fear the idea of men that our culture has blown up into this ugly & twisted thing. So it does not surprise me that some have experienced a full-blown phobia that interferes with their relationships. It really sucks that this comes as no surprise, but when you sit & think about it, the whole thing is just really screwed up.

So, yeah. I dunno. People in positions of power don't deserve any extra-special treatment when it comes to their prejudices from those in marginalized groups, is what I think.

So white, hetero, cisgendered man can't work on their prejudices and fears and they have to suck it up and deal with it. but if you have a problem with a white, hetero, cis couple kissing and you tell them to stop because it makes you uncomfortable, you have every right to?

something doesn't seem right about that.

There is something wrong with that. Hetero couples don't have to worry about expressing love in public. Whereas a girl kissing her girlfriend may be harassed mentally or physically for the same act. It's the little things that people of privilege take for granted, because they don't have to think twice about their actions, because they are the norm & they fit in.

Not to say I don't have certain privileges, because I do; I'm an upper-middle class white girl with a college education. But some parts of me that are out of my control put me at a disadvantage, as I'm sure many, many other people have certain disadvantages in their lives.

Maybe it makes me a crazy feminazi bitch for saying so, but yeah, if some average Joe tells me I make him uncomfortable by kissing another girl &/or refusing to fit into a gendered box, I would have to counter that that is his problem to deal with, & not mine. That's not to say I hate average dudes; I like 'em as much as I like anybody else. Just not when they're prejudiced towards me for the way I was made.

[Bardlp]

I wonder if most LGBT people feel a little nervous about PDAs.

[FlyingFish]

I wonder if most LGBT people feel a little nervous about PDAs.

Probably depends on where they are.

A good seven years ago I rode a bus up California's Highway 5. For nearly the entire trip, one young lady in the row in front of me was in another young lady's lap, snuggling, kissing, and generally being so adorably in love that they were in serious danger of unbalancing the Force. They never got so much as a dirty look.

But that was California. Could they have done the same in rural Mississippi without some reaction? I doubt it.

[grimmi05]

To be honest, I don't think I would have any patience with someone acting homophobic in any form, even if they had some excuse like they're "trying to be more tolerant". If someone told me not to hold hands with someone else in front of them, I'd probably spit on their shoes. I dunno, after years of putting up with crap, I wouldn't be able to just take someone by the hand & tell them it's okay that they have a fundamental fear of me just because I kiss girls sometimes. That's like if someone was acting super-duper racist & said they were trying to be better about not being afraid of (insert race). They better get smart real fast afore I get ready to gently smack their forearm in disgust (because I don't advocate violence, usually).

But that is different than a phobia of men. When one person is in a position of privilege (someone who is white, &/or male, &/or heterosexual, &/or cis), they have no goddang reason to act that way. White cis-gendered straight men are at the top of the food chain, so to speak. Women are one of the many marginalized groups that are harmed by the patriarchy, & we have good reason to fear the idea of men that our culture has blown up into this ugly & twisted thing. So it does not surprise me that some have experienced a full-blown phobia that interferes with their relationships. It really sucks that this comes as no surprise, but when you sit & think about it, the whole thing is just really screwed up.

So, yeah. I dunno. People in positions of power don't deserve any extra-special treatment when it comes to their prejudices from those in marginalized groups, is what I think.

So white, hetero, cisgendered man can't work on their prejudices and fears and they have to suck it up and deal with it. but if you have a problem with a white, hetero, cis couple kissing and you tell them to stop because it makes you uncomfortable, you have every right to?

something doesn't seem right about that.

There is something wrong with that. Hetero couples don't have to worry about expressing love in public. Whereas a girl kissing her girlfriend may be harassed mentally or physically for the same act. It's the little things that people of privilege take for granted, because they don't have to think twice about their actions, because they are the norm & they fit in.

Not to say I don't have certain privileges, because I do; I'm an upper-middle class white girl with a college education. But some parts of me that are out of my control put me at a disadvantage, as I'm sure many, many other people have certain disadvantages in their lives.

Maybe it makes me a crazy feminazi bitch for saying so, but yeah, if some average Joe tells me I make him uncomfortable by kissing another girl &/or refusing to fit into a gendered box, I would have to counter that that is his problem to deal with, & not mine. That's not to say I hate average dudes; I like 'em as much as I like anybody else. Just not when they're prejudiced towards me for the way I was made.

but you are saying that you would spit at them for doing something in front of them that they are uncomfortable with, but if you saw something that makes you uncomfortable, they would have to stop because they are white, hetero, and cis. that doesn't fly. I am not really comfortable with PDA of any type, so excuse if i ask you to stop and you spit at me, we might have a little bit of a problem. You don't know anything about them except for what you see, so what gives you the right to judge them in any way shape or form. so before you go telling people to accept you for who you are, maybe you should learn to accept them for who they are. its common courtesy.

[strangled]

To be honest, I don't think I would have any patience with someone acting homophobic in any form, even if they had some excuse like they're "trying to be more tolerant". If someone told me not to hold hands with someone else in front of them, I'd probably spit on their shoes. I dunno, after years of putting up with crap, I wouldn't be able to just take someone by the hand & tell them it's okay that they have a fundamental fear of me just because I kiss girls sometimes. That's like if someone was acting super-duper racist & said they were trying to be better about not being afraid of (insert race). They better get smart real fast afore I get ready to gently smack their forearm in disgust (because I don't advocate violence, usually).

But that is different than a phobia of men. When one person is in a position of privilege (someone who is white, &/or male, &/or heterosexual, &/or cis), they have no goddang reason to act that way. White cis-gendered straight men are at the top of the food chain, so to speak. Women are one of the many marginalized groups that are harmed by the patriarchy, & we have good reason to fear the idea of men that our culture has blown up into this ugly & twisted thing. So it does not surprise me that some have experienced a full-blown phobia that interferes with their relationships. It really sucks that this comes as no surprise, but when you sit & think about it, the whole thing is just really screwed up.

So, yeah. I dunno. People in positions of power don't deserve any extra-special treatment when it comes to their prejudices from those in marginalized groups, is what I think.

So white, hetero, cisgendered man can't work on their prejudices and fears and they have to suck it up and deal with it. but if you have a problem with a white, hetero, cis couple kissing and you tell them to stop because it makes you uncomfortable, you have every right to?

something doesn't seem right about that.

There is something wrong with that. Hetero couples don't have to worry about expressing love in public. Whereas a girl kissing her girlfriend may be harassed mentally or physically for the same act. It's the little things that people of privilege take for granted, because they don't have to think twice about their actions, because they are the norm & they fit in.

Not to say I don't have certain privileges, because I do; I'm an upper-middle class white girl with a college education. But some parts of me that are out of my control put me at a disadvantage, as I'm sure many, many other people have certain disadvantages in their lives.

Maybe it makes me a crazy feminazi bitch for saying so, but yeah, if some average Joe tells me I make him uncomfortable by kissing another girl &/or refusing to fit into a gendered box, I would have to counter that that is his problem to deal with, & not mine. That's not to say I hate average dudes; I like 'em as much as I like anybody else. Just not when they're prejudiced towards me for the way I was made.

but you are saying that you would spit at them for doing something in front of them that they are uncomfortable with, but if you saw something that makes you uncomfortable, they would have to stop because they are white, hetero, and cis. that doesn't fly. I am not really comfortable with PDA of any type, so excuse if i ask you to stop and you spit at me, we might have a little bit of a problem. You don't know anything about them except for what you see, so what gives you the right to judge them in any way shape or form. so before you go telling people to accept you for who you are, maybe you should learn to accept them for who they are. its common courtesy.

That's the opposite of what I said. Hetero couples are less likely to be accosted & asked to stop being affectionate because they're hetero. & I'm in a hetero relationship right now, so. I'm not really sure where that bit came in. It's less of a PDA thing & more about the sexuality. I got all kinds of shit just for holding my girl's hand once.

I'm not asking anyone to accept me. I'm saying I'll get pissed if they try to boss me around, & I very well may sass them back. Other people's respect isn't something that makes the sun rise &/or set for me.

[Valerie]

but you are saying that you would spit at them for doing something in front of them that they are uncomfortable with, but if you saw something that makes you uncomfortable, they would have to stop because they are white, hetero, and cis. that doesn't fly. I am not really comfortable with PDA of any type, so excuse if i ask you to stop and you spit at me, we might have a little bit of a problem. You don't know anything about them except for what you see, so what gives you the right to judge them in any way shape or form. so before you go telling people to accept you for who you are, maybe you should learn to accept them for who they are. its common courtesy.

She isn't talking about PDA in general. She's talking about when a straight person tells a gay couple not to kiss. And I'm sure she would feel that the other way around (a gay person telling a straight couple not to kiss) would also be wrong.

And if I don't come across as too bossy, could we dial it back a little bit? I think this is starting to get a little more heated and personal than it needs to be. I know that it's a very touchy subject for a lot of people, and I understand that both of you are upset, but we're all trying to communicate properly and learn from each other here. Hostility will only make that harder.