OT: how is ableism an -ism?

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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby Valerie » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:47 pm

It can be hard to explain, especially since I myself am neither Aspergic nor an expert on Asperger's.

The symptoms are similar to what a neurotypical person might exhibit as behavior. The same can be said for most mental illnesses/conditions/disabilities/etc. That's part of why it can be so difficult to really understand what separates a ______ person from a "normal" person. NT people do chat on and on without considering the other person sometimes-- but they usually eventually notice that the other person is bored, whereas someone with Asperger's would have more trouble picking up on that. NT people also develop fascinations, which we usually turn into hobbies or careers (such as, say, your interest in lesbian issues), but autistic people develop interests that are a little more obscure and are better able to memorize patterns related to their interests.

My sister loves the weather. She can also tell you every Pokemon in order. (Now, yes, I could do that as a kid, too, but there were only 150 of the suckers back then. :P) My brother likes (analog) clocks. He breaks them by turning the hands counter-clockwise. He loves flicking light switches on and off, and has ripped many light switches clean off the wall so that he can carry them with him and flick them.

So it can be a little hard to really understand the difference until you see how stark the contrast is. I love music-- I will not have a meltdown if we have to get out of the car before the song on the radio ends. My sister does. I love inside jokes and have plenty of them-- I do not bring up one funny moment from three years ago every time I see the person who was there for the funny moment when it happened. My sister does. It's all of these little things that add up to show how strong her fascinations and repetition are when compared to an NT person.

NT is "neurotypical," if that wasn't clear.

And you're not upsetting me, I'm just trying to figure out how best to explain.

Edited to remove Art's post, since she edited her original out. Not sure whether to delete mine...?
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby Artemisia » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:53 pm

Don't Valerie. I'm just damn it baffled, and obsessing again, and kind of all knotted up because I'm not sure if I'm crossing lines or upsetting people or just sound wrong, stalkery, difficult.

I know I'm not normal neurologically, but I hate thinking that there's something wrong with me, and it sometimes feels like that's what people have said. So, I'm trying to understand and working myself up into an emotional meltdown, and I shouldn't.
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby Valerie » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:01 pm

Artemisia wrote:Don't Valerie. I'm just damn it baffled, and obsessing again, and kind of all knotted up because I'm not sure if I'm crossing lines or upsetting people or just sound wrong, stalkery, difficult.

I know I'm not normal neurologically, but I hate thinking that there's something wrong with me, and it sometimes feels like that's what people have said. So, I'm trying to understand and working myself up into an emotional meltdown, and I shouldn't.


You haven't said anything that makes me upset. You're just asking questions because you're trying to understand, and the world needs people to do that. And even if you still don't understand, the fact that you're trying to learn means a lot, especially to people like me who have relatives with autism. Sometimes all we want is for someone to understand, or to try to understand. Having an autistic relative can be difficult,* and sometimes they say or do something in public that you, as the parent or older sister, have to apologize for, with a quick, "I'm so sorry, he's autistic, he doesn't understand." And even then, sometimes the response you get will be irritation. It's so nice in that situation to hear a simple "I understand."

*This does not, in any way, mean that I consider my siblings a burden, nor does it mean I think they have it easier than me, because they don't.

And there is nothing wrong with you. There is also nothing wrong with my sister. If you have Asperger's, it's okay. If you don't, it's also okay. You are a considerate and intelligent person, and that's all you need to be, in my opinion.
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby Artemisia » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:05 pm

Valerie,

You sound like a wonderful sister to have. Your siblings are blessed to have you. And thank you for understanding.

I think I need to go calm down a bit. Besides, I need to get some packet work done.

HUGS and take care.
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby Valerie » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:06 pm

*hugs back* <3
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby Lia S » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:22 am

Captain LeBubbles wrote:
Lia S wrote:Of course it does feel good to claim we're the next step in evolution (which means better) when we're being treated as lesser now.


It's also a misconception to say that evolution is always change for the better- it's not, it's just adapting better to a different environment.


At first I did type "better adapted", but I backspaced the latter word because I was making a point about how people want to feel (better than others) rather than what they would actually be if only they weren't wrong (better adapted than others).

I don't have a time machine so I cannot verify my prediction, but assuming society continues to develop in the same direction as it has for the last say 200 years, and assuming evolution won't be "stopped" by modern medicine, then in the future there will be fewer people with autistic traits, not more.
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby Rawra » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:36 am

***
Oh, I'm actually really glad to see this thread for a number of reasons... Firstly that you actually want to question your own thought process, and are willing to learn what you can - which is so appallingly uncommon. Second, that this presents a platform from which to educate others.

(I actually only joined now to participate in the acronym & anti-straight prejudice threads, but this was timed too perfectly not to be my first stop)

To be clear on where I'm coming from on this topic: I grew up with a life-long chronically ill parent, childhood disabled/differently-abled friends, spent my entire life with a mental illness and have been living with a physical disability for a full third of my life.



Firstly, your definition of ableism is a fair bit off.

Much like feminism is not the concept that women are superior to men (despite what militant man-hating "feminists" & the mass media may try to convince you into believing), ableism isn't about being disabled/differently-abled as a better state than being able-bodied & mentally-capable. It's about deserving equal treatment.
Just as racism is defined as "practices that discriminate against members of particular racial groups, for example by perpetuating unequal access to resources between groups." (Wiki Article) and sexism as "not just a matter of individual attitudes but is built into many societal institutions" (Again from the Wiki Article) ableism is about the societal or institutional discrimination against other-than able-bodied & mentally-capable persons.

Would I rather have a fully capable mind & body? Sure I would. Is that ever going to happen? Not bloody likely. Does that at all diminish my value as a person? No.
Or my capability to live a fulfilling life? Again, no. What about my ability to contribute to society? Also no.
What it does do, is change the manner in which I am capable of living my life and contributing to society. By no means does it necessarily diminish me in any way. Not unless I allow it to.
But that fact doesn't prevent society from seeing & acting otherwise.



Coming back to those definitions I gave earlier.

Would you consider it discrimination if blacks were not allowed access to public services or entrance into politically important buildings or access to emergency precautions or denied equal education? Or women or non-heterosexuals for that matter?
How is that different from not providing access into those same buildings for wheelchair users? Or fire exit strategies for the blind? What about the mentally handicapped or ill who are segregated from their mentally-capable classmates and/or not given adequate instruction to allow them to work at the same level as their age-mates? What about those with invisible illnesses or other disabilities that do not fall under that very narrow traditional definition of "handicapped*" who are denied the same benefits to healthcare & welfare which may very well be necessary for their maintaining a healthy and functional life (and in some of our cases, our very continued existence)?
*(Paraplegic, quadriplegic, blind, deaf, and elderly)

It's a case of complicit negligence as opposed to outright oppression. But the result is exactly the same as if these were laws. No, not every disability is disadvantaged in the exact same manner, what is a great obstacle for one person may be a non-issue for another, and yet another person may have no problem with either or suffer minor hassle with both. But in apartheid blacks received one treatment, while coloureds a different, and indians or asians yet another... They were all differently effected, yet all were oppressed by it.

Some further examples of institutional ableism discrimination.



I think most disabled people (at least in my experience) would not term themselves as "differently-abled"... however, I can see it being quite a different matter for say, someone who's deaf, especially those born so, particularly given the deaf community & culture, seeing as they feel they are not disadvantaged by their lack of hearing. Same for someone with asperger's or an "abnormal" processing "disorder", seeing as their major problem is adapting to a world in which an alternative-perception is prevalent & predominant. Much like being left-handed in our right-dominant world.
(have you ever tried using a pair of scissors for someone of the opposite dexterity? It's incredibly frustrating and quite tiresome... but entirely do-able)

There is an error in stating that it's not a consequence of human diversity. Look at something like Sickle Cell Anaemia - it's a disease needing management to most, but having one copy of that gene in areas where malaria is highly common is an advantage & makes you more resistant to the infection, thus increasing life expectancy there. (This is why it's more common amongst black populations descended from tropical tribes) Where-as outside of that circumstance it now actually shortens life-expectancy.
We find symmetrical features attractive because they indicate a certain amount of health in a potential mate... different degrees of symmetry then indicate differing states of health. Diversity. Different conditions are the result of human diversity. It comes back to the point about evolution not always being an improvement. Keep in mind that disabled people may have healthy children, infact, people with different genetic dispositions might actually benefit from each other's "bad genes" by cancelling the others negative effects out. Diversity is how nature experiments with finding suitable adaptations.

Seeing it as default?
What? Like how Straight, white males are the predominant figure in practically all media & positions of power? Because that encourages a healthy image of normality for everyone else... women, blacks, hispanics, asians, gays, bisexuals, asexuals, lesbians, trans, disabled... If you aren't a straight, white male then you aren't of importance. Oh, you'd like a role-model? Good luck finding one who you can actually identify with on more than one front. Oh, you think a woman can be president? Hah. Black billionaire CEO? Uhuh. Trans actress? You've GOT to be kidding. Mentally ill person who's NOT a serial killer? Yeah, right.
Because that's the picture society presents us with. If you're a woman your only importance is in relation to a man. Black? Oh, you're the sidekick who dies first. Alternate sexuality orientation or gender? Unheard of or a pervert. Disabled? Clearly evil/deserved it or just a figure to pity.
Where is the very normal guy who happens to be hispanic, gay & mayor? The woman who hasn't had to sacrifice her femininity in order to get ahead to become a successful professional? The trans girl with lupus?
Native americans and other indigenous peoples are minorities... does that mean that they aren't the "default" and therefore don't deserve to be represented or respected? The "ideal" is white, so anyone who's not is not good enough, they should try be more white despite it's biological impossibility? Straight is "default"... therefore everyone should aspire to this contrary to their actual sexuality?
For that matter we should only ever present images of the "ideal" human... because anything else is worthless. Despite the fact that noone actually ever meets all the criteria. We can't possibly display real people & their stories. They might start to think they count.
Is someone less of a human because they don't share the same ethnicity & culture as is "default" to the majority?


As for when is it able-ist to use certain words? I'd say the line is when it's derogatory versus metaphor. Metaphor is respectful, you're being descriptive without judgement. When you're deliberately stating it as an insult or assigning a value... Like calling someone "retarded"... that's able-ist because you're using mental retardation as something of lower worth... defining it as being of lesser value. It all comes down to what value you're attaching to the word. No value, no discrimination. The moment the word is loaded with value, it similarly is carrying discrimination.



Now, onto the societal factors.
This is a difficult one to convey. Much of it is so ingrained in society (like patriarchy) that it may often bypass our notice completely.
But how is a phrase like "that's so retarded" any different from "that's so gay" really? What's the real difference between "fag" and "cripple"? Both may deeply effect & inflict pain upon one person, and yet may be claimed as part of an identity for another. (I myself fall under the latter case) And yet these are phrases that are uttered everyday without thought by many, many people. And it's not as uncommon as you'd think for this to be done within earshot (or even to and sometimes by) someone who's life is effected by disability (whether personally, or through someone they care about)... There are an awful lot more people living with a disability of one sort or another, whether severe or relatively minor... And this is just a visible symptom of the greater attitude of society as a whole. Yes, being disabled is defined by being impaired in a manner that effects you on a daily basis, and that usually means that you lack a capability of some sort... But all too often that is seen as being broken, lesser, bad, incomplete... and it's not just your inability that's viewed that way... all too often these are applied to the person as well. Even when these disabilities may be completely negligated by the use of aides.

Image

From what you've said I think this is related to the part that's confusing you...

If we take someone with a disability, for example, a leg amputee... these people are completely capable of functioning on the same level (and even in the same manner) as your regular able-bodied folk, IF they are provided the tools (the prosthetic) and training (physical therapy) with which to do so. And yet despite this fact they will be treated as inferior to able-bodied persons. Even given no other differences. They are seen as less attractive, less capable, less functional... in the eyes of society their entire value as a person is diminished. They are to be fixed... Not every person with a disability is housebound, unable to interact with society, and incapable of pursuing a vocation. Many people who you would qualify as able-bodied & mentally-capable that you interact with on a daily basis may very well be living with a disability. Yet we are still often times treated as lesser citizens. As lesser people.

In the UK approximately 1 in 3 people is either disabled or is close to someone disabled.
Between 10% - 15% of the world's population is disabled in one way or another. (And this is likely still under-reported) Making the disabled community the largest minority in the world. We are not so unusual as to be utterly abnormal.

I take medication everyday in order to maintain my health as best I can.
It's no different to me than brushing your teeth is for you.
Yet, this simple fact (let alone any of the other ways my disability alters my life): that I need medication in order to function on equal footing to normal people, and in the same manner as them, automatically qualifies me as wrong in our society. The moment people find out about my illness I am treated differently. Sometimes this has been good... like asking how they can better facilitate my different needs. Usually though... this is not the case.
Most of the time it's subtle... so subtle you might not even realise it's happening... and often it's unintentional. But just because people don't mean to discriminate or treat you badly doesn't make it okay.



And then sometimes it's incredible outright.
I think the worst case and the one that abled people really just do not even think of, consider or sometime even believe, is the incredible amount of prejudice & discrimination amongst the medical profession... the very people that most of us rely on in order to live our best possible lives... that is if you even have access to the medical care you need in the first place - disabled people are 3 times more likely to be denied healthcare than non-disabled in developed countries. Even worse in developing countries like mine.

I'm lucky in that my father does every thing he can to give me access to private healthcare, but there are many, many people less fortunate. In my country alone nearly a quarter of the people that require dialysis actually have access to it. The demand just so far exceeds the supply... and then even amongst those who do have access, there are those really tragic cases like those who fall just within that income bracket that means you're too well off to qualify for free healthcare, and so you end up paying your entire income into just getting your required treatment - there are people who literally have to pay their medical costs before they buy food, which they are then not able to afford. There are people living purely off the generosity of those close to them because they can't afford anything beyond their medical needs... and sometimes not even that. Or things like this one woman I knew who was kicked out of the hospital because she turned 55. This is a woman with a chronic & potentially life threatening (without treatment) condition, simply because she was chronic & of a certain age, thus she was considered a lost cause & basically left to die. (She didn't, but only because her family bent over backwards to pay for her to get her treatment privately - she was also a case where she was literally living off food donations) Agreeably our healthcare system is notoriously under-funded & understaffed, resultantly being incredibly hard, but we are hardly the only place where such injustices happen.



I mean, even when you're lucky enough to get into private there's still an incredible amount of mistreatment.

Most of my experience is from the perspective of chronic illness, which you'd be surprised at how often is forgotten that as a possible disability. (Just like not all disabilities are chronic illness, not all chronic illness is a disability - some people may live perfectly functional lives, others of us... not so much. This doesn't just depend on your disease, but actually differs between each individual patient, no matter how identical their diagnosis)

But there are some terrible things, like the ward nurses, who believe that just because they have a uniform (and training), that makes them an expert on your personal health... no matter how new they are to the profession, how experienced you are from years of dealing with your specific case or obscure your condition. Which means they don't listen to you. Sometimes you will even be treated as being "difficult" or "problematic" or worse yet "non-compliant" and "resistant" when all you're trying to do is to best to protect your health & wellbeing.

I've had a matron who completely ruined my one surgery to create an access port because she decided to treat me like a child. I came out of theatre & was just waking up, still groggy, when she decided to "check up on me" and that she was going to grab onto and squeeze the clearly marked "do not touch" arm that had just been operated on, and continue to do so despite me actually ending up screaming in pain and my father yelling at her to stop. With the added commentary from her that "No, it's fine, I know what I'm doing"...
I lost the port as a result. This has means I now have to have an artificial one because of problems with the others they tried to create ending up non-functional, and me being 2 possible options short. (After that one failed they would normally try the same position on the other side, but because this one didn't work they decided to rather try a better bet, seeing as we didn't realise the effects of this incident until afterwards... Basically instead of 4 standard options, she effectively halved mine: once they pass-over the first 2, you can never go back & try them)

And it doesn't matter how you interact with them either, the most respectful & polite manner is ignored & dismissed just as easily as screaming and fighting. (the latter as being "unreasonable" and the former as "unimportant") That's really what it comes down to though. Dismissal. Being treated as if you have no say... no right to autonomy, or choice. Your choice about what happens inside your body has already been stolen from you by circumstance... having your conscious choice be stripped from you too is just to much. It's denying your right to be treated as a person.
I'm in my 20s, I have been sick and responsible for caring for my disease since early teenagehood. And yet at 21 & legally and adult, I've been given the same respect for my independence as a petulant 4 year old. Taking away my very recognition as human.
I'm apparently not even allowed my right to liberty and security of person and have been subjected to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.
(This is one of my collection of horror stories... worse still, there were people present who knew me - friend and regular medical staff alike - and were also well aware of my illness & physical state, yet did not even attempt to intervene... Because this is apparently an acceptable treatment for someone in my condition)


Hospitals (and their staff) have denied me my necessary medication, taken it away from me all together, and seized control of it, despite the strict medical instructions I'm supposed to follow in regards to it. Because despite years of self-regulated treatment, I'm apparently not responsible enough to medicate myself.
I've had to fight staff who've insisted that they must do certain things a certain way (without any better reason than "we're supposed to" or "it's procedure" a lot of the time) which would actually be contradictory to my health and even go against previously given doctor's orders...
I've had a doctor change my medicine against my will, without consulting me, simply because a test result didn't exactly meet his standards. It damn nearly killed me I had such a bad reaction to the drug. He also did this immediately before leaving for 2 weeks.
My best friend has two severe chronic pain conditions, yet has to fight her specialist for the illness in order to get the painkillers she needs just to be able to get out of bed in the morning. Actually, this is a recurring issue with chronic pain patients... We're constantly being treated like drug-seeking addicts (nevermind that addiction is it's own brand of illness for the moment) when all we're doing is attempting to receive adequate treatment. Even after years of living with the condition and seeing the same doctor. Most chronic pain patients I've talked to, their biggest fear? That they really are just drug-seeking addicts, that's how pervasive the attitude is... that it's convincing desperately sick people not to seek treatment from fear of accusation and rejection... Because if your doctor thinks you're a druggie, not only will you be treated like crap, and denied medication for it, but it starts the pattern of them taking you less and less seriously. Until eventually no matter how much you're suffering they won't believe that there's a genuine physical problem there. (Happens more often than you'd think)
Which is particularly bad in circumstances where there's a limited number of specialists for your condition available to you, so losing a doctor is a BIG deal, or where medical professionals discuss you, and the one who doesn't believe you convinces others that you're not really sick too. Meaning your treatment degrades in other areas too. As you're taken less seriously by more people.


Oh, and then there's the situation where you actually have a mental or emotional diagnosis... the moment people realise you have one, you are treated as if everything were a result of it. If I'm upset, I will be told I'm being "irrational and crazy"... no matter how valid my point, or how credible the cause... Me disagreeing with the hospital staff must mean I'm "unstable"... even if they are actively causing harm to me. I've been told that my (physical) illness was purely in my head.
I had some horrid symptoms after my last surgery, and was convinced something was wrong with it... the surgeon pretty much accused me of just wanting to get rid of the catheter... Like I was a kid who didn't like the situation & was playing ill to get out of it, when I fully realise that no matter how unpleasant this may be I need it in order to stay alive. Nevermind the fact that while I didn't like it, I had no problem with the thing, and had had one before for quite a long time without any issue.
Now, at this stage, I was literally unable to stand up by myself without falling over at great risk of injury. I couldn't make it the 5 meters to the door out my room - let alone halfway down the passage to the bathroom - without assistance. There is literally nothing I hate more than losing my self-reliance - you couldn't give me all the money in the world to fake that. Was constantly sick too. Turned out that the damn tubing was too long for me, and was actually waving around my heart interfering with my autonomous nervous system. That could literally have been something that stopped me being able to breathe... or have a steady heart rhythm... or any number of other things that could have been potentially lethal. Thank goodness I have a great relationship with my specialist who listened to me when I told him "this is really really serious, get this guy to fix it"



Even those working in mental health specifically will treat you like crap. You're no longer a person to them. No matter the fact that my condition is managed & treated to the point where I usually function as perfectly mentally healthy. I mean, I have bad days... We all do, but they're not that different from a normal person's.
I still refuse to deal with almost all of the mental health profession after my last experience with them... (I had a nervous breakdown & was hospitalised/institutionalised)
I was in a very abusive home situation at the time, and because of my pre-existing mental health history they not only didn't believe me, but took the abuser's side. They also insisted my physical illness was a part/result of my mental one. Uhm, no. Followed by insisting I was to remain in their unit despite the arrangement being that I was going to a safe place, and they would be closing for the holidays a few days later anyhow... and when I didn't do so, they told my family that I couldn't be allowed to leave as I was suicidal.
When that didn't work, (my dad called them out on their bullshit) they "kicked me out", and forbade contact between me & the other patients since I was now classified as a "bad influence"...
They were a rehab & psych ward for Adolescents & young adults... yet all of us who came in with behavioural, metal or emotional problems were forced to participate in narcotics anon sessions & activities, they furthermore attempted to get us all to "admit to our addictions"... and when we didn't (because we didn't have any), we were "in denial"... and when their recovery program didn't "fix" us, we were kicked out from the facility.
The only way they considered you as "fixed" was if you lied & told them you accepted your addiction & all that crap.

So yeah, treatment in all medical areas can be really really crap.



Then there's the problem of general society... although that tends to be less damaging to your actual health, and focus on destroying your ability to function in normal society... When you've been disabled long enough, it can get extremely difficult to relate to abled people. They just exist in a completely separate reality and usually don't even think to compromise or understand... That burden is always on the disabled: Conform, fit in, adjust.

Another good example of healthy people failing to interact well with the disabled - constantly stating that you must fight your disability, or cure it. Which just shows the lack of understanding between the two groups.
I mean, do abled-people fight their inability to fly under their own power? No. Why? Because it's just simply something that's not possible for them to physically do... Fighting it would be pointless, curing it an incredibly remote possibility at best. Neither are practical or serve any real purpose. You'd think that anyone who obsessed over fighting their inability to fly as disturbed.
Instead people build machines, tools, that allow them to travel faster, to take to the air. Or they get on quite fine without ever flying at all. This is healthy.
Same with telling someone to fight their disability. Fighting it is pointless, impractical, and a waste of time & effort.
Accepting your reality and your limitations and developing ways to deal with or mitigate them is the best you can do.



TL:DR
Does it suck to be disabled? Yes.
Because of the handicap? Yes.
Does this mean being disabled is automatically OMG AWFUL? Nope. I can have a perfectly satisfactory & even fullfilling life. It's just a part of my life. Some people are short-sighted. They put on their glasses & deal with it without thinking anything of it. They aren't seen as being of any less value as anyone, or as incapable of being responsible for themselves. Being near-sighted doesn't change the way society interacts with you. It doesn't diminish you.
What does able-ism really mean? That I'm not treated like an actual person, with respect & rights.
What am I, as someone disabled, looking for?
I'd like to be treated as equal to my able-bodied peers. I'd like to be recognised & acknowledged as a person. To be heard & respected. To be treated with dignity. I'd like to have the freedom to make my own decisions & pursue my own aspirations with as much opportunity as anyone else.
I want my full human rights.



***I've spent 3 days writing this - excuse the length & any rant-ish-ness
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby Captain LeBubbles » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:07 am

First off, welcome to the forum, Rawra! Your tl;dr looks very interesting and I have plans to read it later when I'm not hungry (hnnnn... breakfast... so far awaaaaaayyyy), but I did want to address something that I notice a lot of people have been mentioning, the idea of a default.

Go to your computer. Or your phone. Or your iPod. Or any tech you own, really. Is it older than one week? If the answer is yes, do you still have the default wallpaper/message alert/ringtone/whatever?

Whether or not something is or isn't the default setting, doesn't automatically make it more desirable. Apart from my dad, who can't figure out his phone anyway, I don't know anyone who still has the same ringtone their phone came with.

So even if {insert condition here} is the default (there are some things I think are, and others I think aren't, so I won't get into that), that isn't really saying it's preferable when you stop and think about it.

So the next time someone tells you that you're less because you don't conform to their idea of the default setting, ask them what their ringtone/wallpaper/whatever is on their phone/computer/iPod/etc.
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby CBrachyrhynchos » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:10 am

Quite a bit of what Rawra said.

At least with the Deaf community, there's a very real lack of trust because the educational and therapeutic solutions generally imposed by hearing people on Deaf people have had shitty outcomes. The futile hours spent teaching lipreading and speech therapy were hours that could have been spent on ESL reading/writing, math, science and the humanities. Institutional bias against ASL created additional barriers for Deaf people in the larger culture.
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby oddtail » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:27 am

CBrachyrhynchos wrote:Quite a bit of what Rawra said.

At least with the Deaf community, there's a very real lack of trust because the educational and therapeutic solutions generally imposed by hearing people on Deaf people have had shitty outcomes. The futile hours spent teaching lipreading and speech therapy were hours that could have been spent on ESL reading/writing, math, science and the humanities. Institutional bias against ASL created additional barriers for Deaf people in the larger culture.


Well, that's actually one of the better points I've read in the thread. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby Twitcher » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:20 pm

Oh boy oh boy oh boy, is happy fun times now! This is my milleu! My sister and I both have cerebral palsy, a birth defect which damaged the parts of our brains specific to movement. As a result, I have very limited use of my right hand, and we both have difficulty walking; Sis uses a cane, I use a chair. While I do things a bit differently than ablebodied people (I need help with transportation, dress, and other things) I see the daily aid I need as less of a horrifying trauma than a mild to moderate annoyance. (I understand it is much different, and more difficult, for people who became disabled later in life, as they have to cope with a sense of loss that I and my sister never experienced. It's the trauma, loss and grief that's the most terrible thing, though. If one is capable of living well while possessing a disability that they cannot fully recover from, they're going to have to try.) What I'm more upset by, as someone aptly put it, is that sense of paternalism--- what ablelism truly is. I've had personal care attendents (and smarmy relatives!) who seemed to believe that they were absolutely Christly for daring to even associate with the disabled. (Remember, Leviticus says we aren't allowed to do the same things in church as you regular folk, cause we must've done something to deserve this!) We can't have any nice role models, either, without somebody complaining: Apparently, you can't be a superhero in the DCU if you have a disability, so goodbye, Oracle, goodbye Cassandra Cain. Oh, and why didn't Toph die during Avatar: The Last Airbender? She should've! It just felt right!" (Yes, I've actually heard this argument used.) I'd like help with certain things, yes, but why should my very existence be regarded as a tragedy because of that?
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby Yinello » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:42 pm

2 years ago my mother had nasty brain trauma and lost control of the right side of her body in a single moment. Apparantly a blood vessel had randomly burst in her brain and caused the cells there to suffocate.
Now she has some control over her right leg (she can kick and stretch and bend), but she still can't do anything on her own. She seems content, she has accepted that she's in a state of recovery and knows the path of recovery is long and slow. But for some reason I still can't seem to accept it. I keep wanting to see her recover now now now, to at least see her walk so that she can feel as independant as she used to be.

I'm aware that I've undergone just as big a shock as my mother has the night all changed, but for some reason I can't accept it as she does. I don't see her as a complete human, I want to fix her, to see her fixed and to let her have a 'normal' life. It took me a long time to accept I'll never have my mother back as she was, but I still can't accept that she might stay this way for the rest of her life.

Does this make me an ableist? I don't know. It's not that I think people with disabilities are less of a person and I applaud handicapped people for achieving things that people thought they'd never achieve. And I'm aware that what my mother has is a lot more serious than someone who needs glasses. But I feel bad that it takes me a lot of strength to feel really happy when I'm with her.
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby FlyingFish » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:51 pm

Twitcher wrote:"Oh, and why didn't Toph die during Avatar: The Last Airbender? She should've! It just felt right!" (Yes, I've actually heard this argument used.)

:shock: My Toph fanboy rage burns! I shall smite down they who slandered the rock goddess! I-- *ahem* ...sorry, don't know what came over me. Carry on. *goes back to watching the latest Korra episode*

More seriously, your mention of Toph, Gordon, and Cain together make me think: all three are female. I have to wonder if this is the result of two stereotypes in synergy, that females and those with disabilities are both seen as "helpless" in some way. (On the other hand, counterpoints: Matt Murdock, Charles Xavier. On the other other hand, no writer has "cured" either of them; are they as men seen as strong enough to overcome their limits?)
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby Captain LeBubbles » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:59 pm

Xavier occasionally gets to leave the chair, but the only time I've ever seen it done was in that one Animated arc and he lost his powers as a result. Or he lost his powers and it made him able to walk again? They were never completely clear on that, actually.
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Re: OT: how is ableism an -ism?

Postby oddtail » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:04 pm

Oh, and coming back to what was brought up a few times - the Deaf community, the fact that they have their own distinct culture and language...

...I must admit I don't see it as an argument against making those people (especially children) able to hear if possible. Yes, that could lead to sign languages declining or even becoming extinct. But I don't think that'd mostly be the function of the fact that it's what happens in the world all the time. Languages become extinct all the time. Yes, it's terrible. And sure, efforts need to be made to prevent that. But I don't buy, nor fully understand, the argument that people should not be given the opportunity to hear for cultural reasons.

Also, the argument has been brought that Deaf people often do not regard themselves as disadvantaged. Again, I'm not reaaaaaaally sure if that argument works. If a person is deaf from birth, they don't really know what hearing is, they can only imagine it on an intellectual level. I know the "they don't know what they're missing" sounds patronising, but I can't help but think that's how it is. A person who is, say, colourblind has a different colour perception (*) than most, they have a baseline for comparison and can extrapolate from there. A person who hasn't experienced a particular sense is a different situation. I imagine if it turned out that humans have a latent, say, electromagnetic sense (**) and that it is possible to comparatively easily unlock that, I'd regard sticking to the regular five senses as an unwise idea. Even as it would render this quirky "spoken language" I use irrelevant.

What I'm saying is, I think both the world and the Deaf people would benefit from spreading the Deaf (sub?)culture to hearing people. Preserving the culture at the price of isolation is not particularly healthy. Another matter is, of course, that the general public would not be very receptive of the culture. Still, if it worked (to use an analogy that will probably backfire on me horribly) with African-American culture...

(*) Incidentally, I find it curious how misrepresented in the popular consciousness the idea of colour-blindness is. I've seen time and time again people assuming that a person (or an animal, for that matter - wolves come to mind) who is colour-blind sees the world as monochromatic. The actual mechanics of perceiving colours mean that most colour-blind people just see a "two-dimensional" spectrum of colours, rather than a "three-dimensional" one (i.e. they perceive the world based on how strong two particular light frequencies are in a given colour, rather than the normal three). So, there aren't really any colours that a given person "can't see". But I digress.
(**) We do have a capacity to sense electromagnetic fields, but I wouldn't call it a full-blown sense.
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