[Off-Topic] [Edited title] Julia Maddera on Patriarchy

[grimmi05]

You ducked Lia's point about the difference between 'rape' being a privilege and 'not having to worry about rape' being a privilege.

Privilege, Kchoze, is like those spiked bats I described. Remember how I explicitly mentioned that most of the women never, ever used them in a threatening fashion? Yeah, that's privilege. It has nothing to do with your personal code of conduct; it's got everything to do with the fact that the women you encounter have no way of knowing whether or not you're the type to swing that bat. Privilege is a weapon you cannot put down.

I ducked nothing. Privilege is an unearned advantage that one benefits from. Not having to worry about being raped (though men are raped, at much lower rates than women, so it's not true to say that men don't have to worry about it, especially if they are ever in jail, men are just taught not to let their fears show) is not a privilege. It is what everyone should expect from society. It is a right, the right to safety, that many women feel deprived of because of the prevalence of rape. It is terrible, it is unacceptable... but it isn't male "privilege" in no way, shape or form.

I think I've explained at length why this twisted reasoning that "the disadvantages women may have are actually male privilege of not having these disadvantages" is wrong, that I reject it completely and entirely.

You've explained that you feel that way and reject it, yes. I've seen scant rationales behind that position, however, so I dispute that you've explained at length WHY you feel that way.

Furthermore, since you're bringing up semantics, privilege has nothing to do with what you've earned--some privileges are earned, others are not. For instance, being allowed to drive is a privilege we grant to those who have demonstrated they can pass the driver's test. In Saudi Arabia, women are not permitted to even get a license; the ability to do so is, in Saudi society, a purely male privilege.

1.
a. A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste. See Synonyms at right.
b. Such an advantage, immunity, or right held as a prerogative of status or rank, and exercised to the exclusion or detriment of others.
2. The principle of granting and maintaining a special right or immunity

{quote="Collins English Dictionary"]
1. a benefit, immunity, etc., granted under certain conditions
2. the advantages and immunities enjoyed by a small usually powerful group or class, esp to the disadvantage of others one of the obstacles to social harmony is privilege

Note that the concept of the privilege being "earned" or "unearned" is never mentioned.[/quote]

But you just mentioned that rape is not a male privilege, rape is punishable by law in most if not all civilized countries. a being less likely to be raped is not a privilege either, for its not exercised to the exclusion to detriment of others and is not granting a special right or immunity. Now women being more likely to be raped then men is a sad sorry fact, but it does not make it in anyway a male privilege.

Its like saying because I don't live around any ranches I am less likely to be gored by a bull, so I am more privileged then somebody who lives near a ranch.

[Freemage]

Note that Holly may be arguing against the term privilege, but overall, she's not arguing against the concept of it. At least several of your posts have come across as denying the very phenomenon exists, and that's why you're getting so much blow-back. In some ways, the raised-hackles reaction Holly describes even serves a purpose--if you're already aware of the meaning of the term, for instance, then being reminded to check your privilege isn't offensive, it's just a reminder of context. So if someone gets defensive as their first reaction, it's very likely that yes, they're going to need to be walked through Feminism 101 before useful conversation can continue.

As for the definition debate: Special immunity. Men outside of prison have it, women don't. It's omnipresent in our society, and factors into women's behavior on hundreds of little ways every day.

[grimmi05]

Note that Holly may be arguing against the term privilege, but overall, she's not arguing against the concept of it. At least several of your posts have come across as denying the very phenomenon exists, and that's why you're getting so much blow-back. In some ways, the raised-hackles reaction Holly describes even serves a purpose--if you're already aware of the meaning of the term, for instance, then being reminded to check your privilege isn't offensive, it's just a reminder of context. So if someone gets defensive as their first reaction, it's very likely that yes, they're going to need to be walked through Feminism 101 before useful conversation can continue.

As for the definition debate: Special immunity. Men outside of prison have it, women don't. It's omnipresent in our society, and factors into women's behavior on hundreds of little ways every day.

But men aren't immune from rape, it might not happen as often and is more likely to go unreported, but its not a immunity. A man can be raped by a man outside of prison, through the use of force or date rape drugs. Its uncommon but it does happen so its not a special immunity.

[Ollie]

One thing I noticed that never comes up in discussions of rape and male privilege and how it all works together is who commits the rapes; it's always an argument of who is being raped.

The usual statistics I've read put male offenders in the ~99%, and female offenders in the ~1%, regardless of who is the victim. Perhaps those numbers would be different if all rapes were actually reported - I would not doubt the shame of a man being raped could be even greater than a woman's, as women are sadly the "expected" victim, and men who are victimized would be a bit less likely to be taken seriously thanks to gender roles and masculinity and etc - but I doubt they would be drastically so. It's always a focus on the victims, which is not a bad thing, but why don't we ever talk about who it is that commits these crimes and violates the rights of other people?

The one time I got a Men's Rights Activist to stfu when he was going on about male rape in prisons and claiming, in all seriousness, that male rape is worse and more common than female rape because of it ( ) was by bringing up the fact that male prisoners were being raped by other men. Unsurprisingly, he had nothing to say in response to that.

[Mr. Brightside]

Freemage sort of brought that up - but the reason it's not brought up is that it's irrelevant to privilege. There's no privilege in being in the same class as most of the offenders, only guilt.

[Louisa]

But men aren't immune from rape, it might not happen as often and is more likely to go unreported, but its not a immunity. A man can be raped by a man outside of prison, through the use of force or date rape drugs. Its uncommon but it does happen so its not a special immunity.

Nobody said they were. But men generally aren't taught by society that they constantly need to be on the alert for potential rapists, nor are they taught that they need to follow a long list of behavioural rules in order to minimise their risks of being raped. Women are.

[grimmi05]

But men aren't immune from rape, it might not happen as often and is more likely to go unreported, but its not a immunity. A man can be raped by a man outside of prison, through the use of force or date rape drugs. Its uncommon but it does happen so its not a special immunity.

Nobody said they were. But men generally aren't taught by society that they constantly need to be on the alert for potential rapists, nor are they taught that they need to follow a long list of behavioural rules in order to minimise their risks of being raped. Women are.

But that still does not make that a male privilege. Most children are taught not to talk to strangers, don't take opened candy, and other such things, so does that make the children who do not recieve this instruction less privileged then those who do? In no way I am saying men are not privileged, we are, but being less likely to be raped is not a privilege.

[Kchoze]

Note that Holly may be arguing against the term privilege, but overall, she's not arguing against the concept of it. At least several of your posts have come across as denying the very phenomenon exists, and that's why you're getting so much blow-back. In some ways, the raised-hackles reaction Holly describes even serves a purpose--if you're already aware of the meaning of the term, for instance, then being reminded to check your privilege isn't offensive, it's just a reminder of context. So if someone gets defensive as their first reaction, it's very likely that yes, they're going to need to be walked through Feminism 101 before useful conversation can continue.

As for the definition debate: Special immunity. Men outside of prison have it, women don't. It's omnipresent in our society, and factors into women's behavior on hundreds of little ways every day.

And according to you, what is so precious about the "concept of privilege" that deserves to be defended? Why is accepting that others may have social disadvantages based on their gender/race/sexual orientation that one doesn't have and that one should be understanding that these disadvantages may affect the life experience of others (which is what I have expressed) not enough? What else does it bring to the table?

[NobodySpecial]

But men aren't immune from rape, it might not happen as often and is more likely to go unreported, but its not a immunity. A man can be raped by a man outside of prison, through the use of force or date rape drugs. Its uncommon but it does happen so its not a special immunity.

Nobody said they were. But men generally aren't taught by society that they constantly need to be on the alert for potential rapists, nor are they taught that they need to follow a long list of behavioural rules in order to minimise their risks of being raped. Women are.

But that still does not make that a male privilege. Most children are taught not to talk to strangers, don't take opened candy, and other such things, so does that make the children who do not recieve this instruction less privileged then those who do? In no way I am saying men are not privileged, we are, but being less likely to be raped is not a privilege.

Yes, it DOES make it a privilege. Can you imagine going to a party and having to worry about being raped if, say, you get separated from your friends? Because that's a very real worry for all women and nothing the vast majority of men even think about.

And that's the point of calling it 'privilege' - the situations where you'll worry about being raped or sexually abused as an adult are pretty much several orders of magnitude below that of a woman....therefore most people never think about it....

...until you say the word 'privilege' and people get all bent out of shape trying to justify why they go around the world with their brain shut off when women have to constantly deal with situations that men are rarely if ever put in.

[Kchoze]

But men aren't immune from rape, it might not happen as often and is more likely to go unreported, but its not a immunity. A man can be raped by a man outside of prison, through the use of force or date rape drugs. Its uncommon but it does happen so its not a special immunity.

Nobody said they were. But men generally aren't taught by society that they constantly need to be on the alert for potential rapists, nor are they taught that they need to follow a long list of behavioural rules in order to minimise their risks of being raped. Women are.

But that still does not make that a male privilege. Most children are taught not to talk to strangers, don't take opened candy, and other such things, so does that make the children who do not recieve this instruction less privileged then those who do? In no way I am saying men are not privileged, we are, but being less likely to be raped is not a privilege.

Yes, it DOES make it a privilege. Can you imagine going to a party and having to worry about being raped if, say, you get separated from your friends? Because that's a very real worry for all women and nothing the vast majority of men even think about.

And that's the point of calling it 'privilege' - the situations where you'll worry about being raped or sexually abused as an adult are pretty much several orders of magnitude below that of a woman....therefore most people never think about it....

...until you say the word 'privilege' and people get all bent out of shape trying to justify why they go around the world with their brain shut off when women have to constantly deal with situations that men are rarely if ever put in.

You assume that men who don't think in terms of "privilege" never think about what it must be for a woman. You are dead wrong. This stinks like rationalization for what most understand is a very bad way to describe reality.

[Trefle]

You assume that men who don't think in terms of "privilege" never think about what it must be for a woman. You are dead wrong. This stinks like rationalization for what most understand is a very bad way to describe reality.

There are multiple ways of -seeing-. Multiple angles of seeing.
Then there are seeing, and there are experiencing,
there are projecting, and there are empathy.
and there are imagining it, and there are constantly being aware of it.

That is reality, if we REALLY want to nitpick.

[EagleEye]

Freemage sort of brought that up - but the reason it's not brought up is that it's irrelevant to privilege. There's no privilege in being in the same class as most of the offenders, only guilt.

Mr. Brightside, I'm a little worried about what you've written here. I'm not really sure that "guilt" is an appropriate term to use in this context. That sounds like you're arguing that all mean are guilty of something, when all that many of them have done is to be born male. Sure, there are men who are sexist and who make women feel uncomfortable and refuse to accept that "no means no" and they are guilty of the things they do, but it seems extreme to paint an entire gender with the term "guilt". (Sorry if I misunderstood your point, but that's what I got out of it."

You assume that men who don't think in terms of "privilege" never think about what it must be for a woman. You are dead wrong. This stinks like rationalization for what most understand is a very bad way to describe reality.

Kchoze, you misunderstand. There is no assumption that men never think about what it must be like for a woman. It's just true, though, that there are many things that we men don't have to worry about that women do. I don't go to parties and feel the need to cover my Solo cup with my hand because someone might put a date rape drug in it. I don't have to worry when I'm out walking alone at night that i might be sexually assaulted. Sure, each of those things is possible, but it is not at the forefront of my mind the way it will be for most women.

I'm a white, cisgendered male. I'm pretty much as privileged as it gets. And I think I understand where you're coming from. I used to be put off by the whole "privilege" thing, for the same reasons the feminist you quoted explained. It sounds like an attack. And I'm afraid I have to disagree with Lia's earlier point that anyone who feels attacked is "being silly." It most definitely seems as though you are being accused of being an oppressor, of being undeserving somehow (as if you have never worked at anything in your life), or as if someone is saying something like "shut up, rich boy." Now, I know that that's not what it means, because I have read up on the subject and because my wife has taught me some things too, but at first glance, that is what it sounds like, and I don't think it's a silly reaction.

The problem, though, is that you have to take a deep breath and step back for a second. Why are you reacting defensively? Why are you so upset? Once I stopped and tried to look at things with a more open mind, I understood more of what feminism is about. It is NOT saying that all men are evil oppressors conspiring to rule the world for the benefit of other men. It's not even saying that the wealthiest, whitest, most cisgendered men are conspiring to rule the world. It is simply describing the reality that there is inequality between men and women, that some of that inequality hurts women and other parts of it hurt men, and that the reason for this inequality is traditional gender roles and subtle ways of reinforcing them. (For example, the first thing people often say to little girls is how pretty they look, and they ask them about their new dress. Boys get asked about what they've been up to and what their interests are. People aren't doing this on purpose, but it reinforces the idea that women are supposed to be pretty and decorative.)

Try not to take it so personally. I know that some of the posts have edged closer to personal attacks than others have, but for the most part, this discussion is emphatically NOT about attacking men or claiming they are all better off everywhere then ALL women and they like it that way.

[Ollie]

You assume that men who don't think in terms of "privilege" never think about what it must be for a woman. You are dead wrong. This stinks like rationalization for what most understand is a very bad way to describe reality.

that you think about what it's like doesn't matter because you don't, and never will, experience it yourself. Which makes you lucky, or more specifically - ahem! - privileged to do so.

Stop fighting it. Just accept it and move on.

[grimmi05]

But men aren't immune from rape, it might not happen as often and is more likely to go unreported, but its not a immunity. A man can be raped by a man outside of prison, through the use of force or date rape drugs. Its uncommon but it does happen so its not a special immunity.

Nobody said they were. But men generally aren't taught by society that they constantly need to be on the alert for potential rapists, nor are they taught that they need to follow a long list of behavioural rules in order to minimise their risks of being raped. Women are.

But that still does not make that a male privilege. Most children are taught not to talk to strangers, don't take opened candy, and other such things, so does that make the children who do not recieve this instruction less privileged then those who do? In no way I am saying men are not privileged, we are, but being less likely to be raped is not a privilege.

Yes, it DOES make it a privilege. Can you imagine going to a party and having to worry about being raped if, say, you get separated from your friends? Because that's a very real worry for all women and nothing the vast majority of men even think about.


And that's the point of calling it 'privilege' - the situations where you'll worry about being raped or sexually abused as an adult are pretty much several orders of magnitude below that of a woman....therefore most people never think about it....

...until you say the word 'privilege' and people get all bent out of shape trying to justify why they go around the world with their brain shut off when women have to constantly deal with situations that men are rarely if ever put in.

So because I don't have to worry as much that makes me privileged? Just because one person or a group of people have to worry about one thing and another group does, does not make it a privilege. Men are more likely to commit suicide then women are. Does that make the woman more privileged when it comes to the chances of ending their own life? Men get prostate cancer and women get breast cancer, so do those "privileges" cancel each other out? Men are more likely to be victims of homicide, does that make it a "privilege" for woman that they don't have to worry about being murdered as much?

[NobodySpecial]

But men aren't immune from rape, it might not happen as often and is more likely to go unreported, but its not a immunity. A man can be raped by a man outside of prison, through the use of force or date rape drugs. Its uncommon but it does happen so its not a special immunity.

Nobody said they were. But men generally aren't taught by society that they constantly need to be on the alert for potential rapists, nor are they taught that they need to follow a long list of behavioural rules in order to minimise their risks of being raped. Women are.

But that still does not make that a male privilege. Most children are taught not to talk to strangers, don't take opened candy, and other such things, so does that make the children who do not recieve this instruction less privileged then those who do? In no way I am saying men are not privileged, we are, but being less likely to be raped is not a privilege.

Yes, it DOES make it a privilege. Can you imagine going to a party and having to worry about being raped if, say, you get separated from your friends? Because that's a very real worry for all women and nothing the vast majority of men even think about.


And that's the point of calling it 'privilege' - the situations where you'll worry about being raped or sexually abused as an adult are pretty much several orders of magnitude below that of a woman....therefore most people never think about it....

...until you say the word 'privilege' and people get all bent out of shape trying to justify why they go around the world with their brain shut off when women have to constantly deal with situations that men are rarely if ever put in.

So because I don't have to worry as much that makes me privileged? Just because one person or a group of people have to worry about one thing and another group does, does not make it a privilege. Men are more likely to commit suicide then women are. Does that make the woman more privileged when it comes to the chances of ending their own life? Men get prostate cancer and women get breast cancer, so do those "privileges" cancel each other out? Men are more likely to be victims of homicide, does that make it a "privilege" for woman that they don't have to worry about being murdered as much?

Deliberately missing the point does not help your argument. The only one that might possibly have any merit here (since it's not the man doing it to himself or the random chance of mutated cells) is the homicide one - but, again, it doesn't have much.

Let me ask you this: When you see a murder in the paper, do you ask what the victim was wearing or if they were by themselves or what behaviors they were doing that deserved their murder? Probably not. For women who claim rape, however, there are ALWAYS questions like that. Even for men who get raped, those questions are not there. THAT'S why it's called privilege - because it's presumed that a normal man who gets raped is a victim, and when a woman gets raped, there are always questions about her sex life or her dress.