[Off-Topic] [Edited title] Julia Maddera on Patriarchy

[Artemisia]

Yeah, I've run into those people in the past, and usually not fared well because they trigger a lot of problems.

[Freemage]

Yeah, I've run into those people in the past, and usually not fared well because they trigger a lot of problems.

Yeah--Manboobz should, IMNSHO, be required reading for people who don't know how bad this shit gets; those who do, though, never really need a reminder.

[Artemisia]

Yeah. Things were bad at one point, and unfortunately, there are a lot of men out there who don't want to listen to what was wrong with the past, but rather try to hold onto their power even if it means ignoring what happened.

[sgtrock]

As I've been reading through this thread, I sometimes think it helps to remember that although we've got a long way to go, we've also come a long way already. When we step back a bit, we can see that tens of millenia of unthinking assumptions have been thrown out the window in an incredibly short period of time.

* Just over a hundred years ago, women all over the world didn't have the vote. Now all but the most backwards societies let women into the poll booth.

* Within my living memory:

• Cheap, effective birth control became readily available, giving women an unprecedented freedom of choice in how their bodies were used.
• "Fear of Flying" by Erica Jong was published.
• The Women's Rights movement got into high gear, coming within a whisker of making the Equal Rights Amendment the law of the land.
• (On a lighter and strictly male heterosexual point of view, one of my favorite protests in the '60s and '70s was bra burning. )
• I was stationed in Hawaii in 1978 when women were allowed to serve on board the USS Vulcan, an ammunition supply ship, for the first time. Now women serve on virtually the entire range of ships, aircraft, and ground units alongside men in all sorts of jobs. This expansion into traditionally male roles across the U.S. military has been echoed by other military establishments in many countries. (For that matter, I should acknowledge that Isreal, the Scandinavian countries, and a few others were decades ahead of us.)

The end result is that my daughter and stepdaughters have career choices that their grandmothers could never have envisioned, let alone striven for. Between the three, I have one going for a double major in math and chemistry, one starting next year on a four year degree program in forensic science, and one who wants to go into a more traditional field; teaching. Professional choice means economic freedom, a prerequisite for political freedom.

I say, more power to them! And to all of you, too!

[Bardlp]

I've been trying to figure out what I think about Nobody Special's ... poem?... for a little while and I think I have it.

If I'm reading you right I think I agree with you. It's important to remember that there are some very powerful women and a lot of very powerless men in the world. I'm... not sure I see the relevance to this discussion, though.

[Kchoze]

To the women on this board: If you want to skip this post down to the asterisk line, feel free; you know what life is like, already, so you don't need the education.

Alright, Kchoze, let's address this:

About the text at the origin of this thread. Basically the author is saying that she's getting a lot of sexual and romantic attention that she doesn't want (plus some of these expressions are just nasty, but let's put that aside for a while). How many men think the exact opposite? That they desperately want romantic and sexual attention and aren't getting any? You spoke of your experience, this is mine. Who is better off, the one with a surplus of attention or the one with a complete lack of it?

This is not what the writer was talking about. Did you actually read the examples given?

I want you to imagine the following:

For starters, we're going to cuff your hands behind your back. Now, every woman in the world is going to be given a large baseball bat with nails in it, that they carry around all day, every day. Furthermore, the cops will respond to complaints about getting hit with those bats by asking what you did to deserve it. And if you shouldn't have maybe been wearing a cup, or at least thicker pants. And really, shouldn't you have stayed home instead of going out to that club? Or maybe stuck with your friends instead of going back to that girl's room alone where she could get a better swing at you without being interrupted? Or kept yourself from drinking so your defenses wouldn't have been down?

And are you sure, for that matter, that you didn't ASK to have that bat swung, not in a figurative sense, but in the literal sense of the word "Ask"--are you sure you didn't tell her it was alright to swing, because that's what SHE said happened, and since none of us were there, it's hard to know the truth. And of course, some women will tap you with a spike, almost gently, and then tell you that if you just spread your legs, they'll use the handle-end with no sharp bits instead, but of course then it really is gonna look like you wanted it and just changed your mind afterwards, but isn't that better than getting the nail-end?

Oh, and there'll be lots of comedies and jokes based around women who wind up like they're going to swing and then don't, or who just casually tap your crotch with one of the nails, just to make the point that they have the ability to do so, and that there's not really jack shit you can do about it until afterwards, if you can get the cops to believe you, that is? And if you complain, you'll just be called a humorless shit who can't take a joke, and maybe you just need a woman to give you a real shot to the sac so you can get the difference?

Also, if you file charges anyway? Then you'll have to hear from everyone about how that girl is such a great gal, and you should've made it more obvious that you didn't want to get hit with a bat. And that really, she is probably sorry, and you should just drop the charges because otherwise you might ruin her life.

Now, the vast majority of women, obviously, would never even THINK of swinging that bat. But the small group who do get away with it, a lot. So much so that somewhere between 1-in-6 and 1-in-3 men (it's hard to get good numbers, because a lot of men just don't report it, because of the way they get treated) get hit with a bat least once.

That's what a world where 'female privilege' is a thing would be like, Kchoze. It'd be a world where you can never, EVER be certain that at any moment, a stranger, a friend, a family member is going to haul off with a spiked bat and crush you in the nuts, AND GET AWAY WITH IT, and maybe even get you blamed for letting it happen. And if it sounds ridiculous, then you'll understand why it really is "male privilege" pretty much exclusively.

**********************************

BTW, folks, you've all been giving Kchoze's point re: father's rights and bogus pedophile concerns too much credit. It's a standard distraction technique for Men's Rights Activists to whip out that, or ask about male prison rape, or one of the other handful of issues that would, in fact, be vastly IMPROVED by a more feminist society--but they use that as a way to derail the discussion, usually as a means to avoid actually addressing a valid and otherwise infallible point about male privilege.

So you think that men in this society have the privilege to rape women? I'm sorry, but that is a completely stupid claim. There is no other word. Society does not endorse rape, to my knowledge no society ever did (even if some had really skewed reactions to it, like forcing the rape victim to marry the rapist). A privilege means that people can do something without expecting social retribution, and that is clearly not the case. Do some men get away with it? Well, yeah, it's called the presumption of innocence. If rape cannot be proven, then by the principles of our legal system, people escape punishment. Sometimes the guilty escape justice that way, but it's either that or arresting and jailing any person who is accused of any crime, proven or not. Sometimes murderers get away with it too... should murder be considered a privilege people have?

One thing I've seen from people like you is claiming that rape is male privilege because all men benefit from it even if only a small minority does it... Again, that's another stupid claim. How do men benefit from the minority who commits acts of violence against women and therefore lead them to be frightened of being vulnerable in their presence? It seems to me that it hurts men too, who are deprived of a lot of potential good social encounters with women. Having people be afraid of you and avoid you is NOT a privilege... or else it would mean that young black males like Trayvon Martin actually have the privilege of being seen as dangerous and feared by a lot of (dumb) people.

I need education? There is such a thing as "bad education" and that's just what you demonstrate here. You sound just as bad at those MRA types, you are deeply invested in the Oppression Olympics and can't tolerate that other points of view may be discussed and your dogmas criticized. Therefore, you see someone bringing a different perspective as "derailing" a discussion. Debate of ideas are forbidden, as your ideas are "proven" and thus debating them is not helpful at all.

Okay, Kchoze basically brought up the fact that men are often viewed with suspicion or derision when they take on traditional women's roles--his primary example was that men who seek to become teachers, particularly of young children, are viewed by some folks as likely pedophiles. The notion that this somehow undoes the overall concept of male privilege, though, is absurd--it very clearly happens because the man is viewed as demeaning himself by taking on an 'unmanly' role, and therefore must have ulterior motives for doing so. (It amused me that Kchoze included a reference to that fact in his post in a derisive fashion, clearly hoping to poison the well, even though he utterly failed to actually make an argument against it.)

"Very clearly" only in your eyes. I've explained my different perception, why I think it's because men are considered as sexually aggressive and so that they can't be allowed to be left alone with children, especially not other people's children, that child-rearing is considered strictly a woman's job. I pointed out examples of real-life situations where just men being in proximity to children evoke social panic, particularly the case of airlines who won't let adult men sit next to unaccompanied minors. Something which your theory can't explain... unless of course you think that sitting next to a child in a packed airplane is a traditional woman's job and that men are considered "unmanly" for doing it.

Should I ask which kind of triggering. . .but then again, I should probably not know. Just talking to Kchoz was a bad enough trigger for me.

If it can comfort you, talking with you and Freemage has also "triggered" me, as in triggered suicidal thoughts. I never glared at women, always treated people politely as equals. Never made lewd comments to women. Never stared at their bodies. Never even masturbated while thinking of women I knew, because I felt that was exploiting their bodies for my sexual pleasure. Now, I'm alone. Never felt desired. Never felt attractive. I can't even manage to fantasize about being loved. Then I fall on texts like those here... apparently, I'm privileged, I've got nothing to complain about. No matter how respectful I may be of the women around me, it's not enough, as someone with a dick, I share the blame for every "Hey sexy lady!" or "Dat ass!" ever said, of every lewd look, of every rape. If I talk about my problems or give my perspective, I am just derailing the discussion away from those who are worthy of attention and social assistance. Because I sure am not, that much is abundantly clear.

[Valerie]

So you think that men in this society have the privilege to rape women? I'm sorry, but that is a completely stupid claim. There is no other word. Society does not endorse rape, to my knowledge no society ever did (even if some had really skewed reactions to it, like forcing the rape victim to marry the rapist). A privilege means that people can do something without expecting social retribution, and that is clearly not the case. Do some men get away with it? Well, yeah, it's called the presumption of innocence. If rape cannot be proven, then by the principles of our legal system, people escape punishment. Sometimes the guilty escape justice that way, but it's either that or arresting and jailing any person who is accused of any crime, proven or not. Sometimes murderers get away with it too... should murder be considered a privilege people have?

Society does endorse rape in many ways. Most of them seem incredibly subtle until you learn to spot them.

Think of this stereotype: Men want sex. Women do not want sex.

Think of how many shows you've seen or books you've read that reinforce that. Think about the sitcoms where Daddy has to "protect" his "little girl" from dating a boy, because the boy will "take" her virginity. Does Daddy think the boy is going to actually rape her? God, no. But pay attention to the words I put in quotation marks there. This is the sort of language we use when talking about sex. A boy takes a girl's virginity. A girl gives herself to someone. Men score. Women get bagged. It always reflects the same idea: sex is something that men and women cannot agree to have. The man wants it and the woman would rather be reading or sleeping.

One thing I've seen from people like you is claiming that rape is male privilege because all men benefit from it even if only a small minority does it... Again, that's another stupid claim. How do men benefit from the minority who commits acts of violence against women and therefore lead them to be frightened of being vulnerable in their presence? It seems to me that it hurts men too, who are deprived of a lot of potential good social encounters with women. Having people be afraid of you and avoid you is NOT a privilege... or else it would mean that young black males like Trayvon Martin actually have the privilege of being seen as dangerous and feared by a lot of (dumb) people.

They do have that privilege. Between being constantly feared or constantly being afraid, which is better? They're both terrible, but you can't say that they're the same level of terrible. People fearing you gives you power. Look at countries that have had fear-inducing leaders. They hold power because people are afraid of them.

If it can comfort you, talking with you and Freemage has also "triggered" me, as in triggered suicidal thoughts. I never glared at women, always treated people politely as equals. Never made lewd comments to women. Never stared at their bodies. Never even masturbated while thinking of women I knew, because I felt that was exploiting their bodies for my sexual pleasure. Now, I'm alone. Never felt desired. Never felt attractive. I can't even manage to fantasize about being loved. Then I fall on texts like those here... apparently, I'm privileged, I've got nothing to complain about. No matter how respectful I may be of the women around me, it's not enough, as someone with a dick, I share the blame for every "Hey sexy lady!" or "Dat ass!" ever said, of every lewd look, of every rape. If I talk about my problems or give my perspective, I am just derailing the discussion away from those who are worthy of attention and social assistance. Because I sure am not, that much is abundantly clear.

We never said you have nothing to complain about. In fact, most of us have said the opposite-- men do have problems. I, especially, am aware of that. Because men have trouble winning custody cases, people I know and care about very much have ended up with abusive mothers. Because men can't hit women, many men are physically abused and can't fight back. And, worse, their abuse is something that society laughs about.

The problem is that many people fail to understand that men's problems and women's problems are so deeply connected. If we could get rid of the idea that women are weak, men would be taken seriously as abuse victims and get the help that they need. If we could get rid of the idea that women are supposed to raise children, men would be able to get custody of their children. Children who deserve good homes would have a better chance of getting one because the judge wouldn't be biased in favor of the mother.

I loved Freemage's rape analogy. I do not agree at all with his statement that talking about men's problems is derailing the conversation-- men's problems are the conversation. So are women's problems. The existence of one does not make the other unimportant. It only reinforces how important the other side's problems are, because every single issue that hurts one side also hurts the other in some way.

In other words, Kchoze, you and I are on the same side. I just wish it were easier for people in general to see that.

[Kchoze]

Society does endorse rape in many ways. Most of them seem incredibly subtle until you learn to spot them.

Think of this stereotype: Men want sex. Women do not want sex.

Think of how many shows you've seen or books you've read that reinforce that. Think about the sitcoms where Daddy has to "protect" his "little girl" from dating a boy, because the boy will "take" her virginity. Does Daddy think the boy is going to actually rape her? God, no. But pay attention to the words I put in quotation marks there. This is the sort of language we use when talking about sex. A boy takes a girl's virginity. A girl gives herself to someone. Men score. Women get bagged. It always reflects the same idea: sex is something that men and women cannot agree to have. The man wants it and the woman would rather be reading or sleeping.

I don't think that's endorsing rape at all. Setting up conditions and frustrations that might lead to rape... there might be an argument. Endorsing rape? No way in hell. Just because sports language include "beating" the other team doesn't mean we encourage players to physically beat the other team's players senseless. "Endorse" means "To give approval of or support to, especially by public statement; sanction:". Does society approve of rape publicly? No way in hell. It's considered a crime on par with murder. People who have been accused of it see their lives ruined even if proved innocent.

They do have that privilege. Between being constantly feared or constantly being afraid, which is better? They're both terrible, but you can't say that they're the same level of terrible. People fearing you gives you power. Look at countries that have had fear-inducing leaders. They hold power because people are afraid of them.

I think asking the question "which is better" is Oppression Olympics, sorry. As you said, both are terrible, so how can a situation that is objectively terrible be considered a privilege? It makes no sense. Not only that, but the comparison you make illustrates why that is. Yes, there are rulers who yield power through fear, Qaddafi, Al-Assad, the Talibans, Stalin, Hitler... is anyone of them considered a paragon of virtue? Yes, fear can lead to power, but it's well understood that those who use fear to rule are despicable people. Claiming that men are privileged to use fear to get power over women is, basically, implying that they are just as bad as those despicable people.

In other words, Kchoze, you and I are on the same side. I just wish it were easier for people in general to see that.

Then why use the language you use?

"Patriarchy" is the problem... but patriarchy means the rule by fathers, and, by extension, of men. That means that there is a problem with men having power, which means that men are somehow untrustworthy to have power and to exercise it. Basically, that they are morally inferior beings. You can say "but what is meant is that the problem is men having exclusive power, that it should be shared" but then why not say the problem is that women need to have more power instead of saying that the problem is that men have power?

"Privilege", again. You take situations that disadvantage women, and instead say that it's not a problem that women have, it's a privilege that men have (of not dealing with that problem)... But by doing that, you basically erase the men's point of view from the equation. You define for them their existence and declare that they are privileged, no matter what their point of view, what their living existence is. I say that the use of "male privilege" itself denies that men can have anything to complain about.

It's not like neutral terms don't exist ("traditional gender roles" for example, or "discrimination", "unfairness", etc...). Most of the early feminists never used such loaded terms and they got the vote, they got human rights recognition, they won a lot of stuff. They never needed to use this language to define their reality. Those terms are not necessary, I'd argue they're not useful either.

It's not just rhetoric, it's also attitude. Freemage is a good example of the attitude I've seen a lot of. "What about teh menz?", filled with sarcasm and scorn, I've read it often. The way the term "dudes" is used with scorn, as if it was a slur. The text you posted ended with images saying to all men who refused to "accept" "male privilege" that they were "stupid fucking cowards". Does that leave any, ANY, place for "well, maybe men's problems and women's problems are connected and both are important to correct"? No it doesn't. Not one bit.

[Valerie]

Please keep in mind that I am not the author of the link in the original post. Her words and my words are not the same-- they just express similar frustrations.

I've already addressed the fact that the words we use are imperfect, but it's the only vocabulary we have to work with. I would love a new term for the concept of "patriarchy," because the literal translation of that word makes it sound like men have no problems. If we can all agree on a different word that would carry the correct meaning and connotation, I would be a very happy feminist.

And, again, I am not thrilled about some of Freemage's post, but I'm not here to judge him (or you, or anyone).

What confuses me, Kchoze, is the fact that you seem to not understand that you and I are allies. We both want the discrimination and unfairness to stop, and I've tried reaching out to you the best I can. Am I coming across as too hostile? I can promise you that I'm not trying to be. Some of the posts here have been a little more fueled (which makes perfect sense, given the nature of the topic, but is not always constructive), so maybe if you read my posts in isolation they'll seem more inviting?

[Trefle]

Kchoze, I'm wondering;
what do you think is bad about this whole thing-- and I'm talking about the original post-- and why?

I will also say that you're -really- nitpicking the vocabulary that people are using here *scratches head*

[NobodySpecial]

I've been trying to figure out what I think about Nobody Special's ... poem?... for a little while and I think I have it.

If I'm reading you right I think I agree with you. It's important to remember that there are some very powerful women and a lot of very powerless men in the world. I'm... not sure I see the relevance to this discussion, though.

What makes men and women powerless are the same damn thing.

[Lia S]

Let me point out the newly introduced straw man.

Getting away with rape is NOT male privilege. (Actually, it is more like a female privilege, cause AFAICT when a woman does rape someone she's much more likely to get away with it.)

Being much more worried about traffic accidents than about rape is a male privilege.

And yes, the opposite sex not being scared of you is a privilege that women have, and it's important to acknowledge that everyone has some privileges (though they don't add up to the same amount for everyone), but can we please stick to the original topic instead of talking about something else and pretending it is some kind of counterargument?

If it can comfort you, talking with you and Freemage has also "triggered" me, as in triggered suicidal thoughts. I never glared at women, always treated people politely as equals. Never made lewd comments to women. Never stared at their bodies. Never even masturbated while thinking of women I knew, because I felt that was exploiting their bodies for my sexual pleasure. Now, I'm alone. Never felt desired. Never felt attractive. I can't even manage to fantasize about being loved. Then I fall on texts like those here... apparently, I'm privileged, I've got nothing to complain about. No matter how respectful I may be of the women around me, it's not enough, as someone with a dick, I share the blame for every "Hey sexy lady!" or "Dat ass!" ever said, of every lewd look, of every rape. If I talk about my problems or give my perspective, I am just derailing the discussion away from those who are worthy of attention and social assistance. Because I sure am not, that much is abundantly clear.

I'm getting the impression you're suffering from "nice guy syndrome" (there's a discussion of that somewhere on these forums but I can't find the thread). A very short explanation of that "syndrome" is that potential partners think you're acting nice to get a reward, which means they think that behind your act you're not nice at all. I'm sure it won't surprise you that people who think of you that way won't want to date you. Of course only you can know whether you're honest when you're being nice. I can only suggest that you be nice because it's a fun thing to be without worrying about how people will treat you, and don't waste your time again on people who aren't nice back to you the first time you meet them.

[NobodySpecial]

If it can comfort you, talking with you and Freemage has also "triggered" me, as in triggered suicidal thoughts. I never glared at women, always treated people politely as equals. Never made lewd comments to women. Never stared at their bodies. Never even masturbated while thinking of women I knew, because I felt that was exploiting their bodies for my sexual pleasure. Now, I'm alone. Never felt desired. Never felt attractive. I can't even manage to fantasize about being loved.

Hi, welcome to the club, about 20 years too late. You know what the difference is?

I'm honest enough to admit that, yes, I damn well do masturbate while thinking of women I know, and I'll do it again a lot, because unless you're asexual, you'll want to beat that meat, and you'll want something either to read or to imagine while you do it.

And I will remind you of the basic fact of life: No one owes you anything in the way of affection. Yes, it sucks. Hard. That's life. Either keep looking or give up.

Apologies to everyone else. That's MY trigger.

[Trefle]

My trigger/projection is people nitpicking. Sorry that I had to glaze over.
thanks for Lia to bringing that one particular issue out.

For Kchoze;
I'm sorry that happened. As it is with Lia, I see the same syndrome; Nice Guy Syndrome. I do not know your reasoning, or your ..inner heart, so to speak. But love, affection, and the most basic form of it; attraction, is given, not demanded. We might go deeper in terms of -why-, but to put it simply; if they aren't interested for you-- find one who will. If the niceness and sense of honor is who you are -- be confident in who you are.

Is that who you are; or who you think you should be?

And in a way, that is quite connected, actually.
In relation to the topic....the key is not privilege, but expectations. Again, I don't get complete knowledge on people, their experience and totality, the degrees of sincere confusion or strategically applied blame in regards of Nice Guy Syndrome. But what I do get is that expectations and privilege can and sometimes are entwined. The more one is situation-wise privileged, the more expectations they can put.
This is applied for any genders; this is without speaking about gender. This is talking about power. And looking in one dimension, that is a form of male privilege too, no? Or at least, a privilege defined by machismo that targeted less aggressive males.

For the less privileged.... What does it they say-- take what you can get? Sometimes that phrase fits.
And I'm quite sure that phrase doesn't sound any right to you. Neither does that phrase sound any right to any female that ever experienced any form of discrimination. Teasing, or worse.

[Bardlp]

I've been trying to figure out what I think about Nobody Special's ... poem?... for a little while and I think I have it.

If I'm reading you right I think I agree with you. It's important to remember that there are some very powerful women and a lot of very powerless men in the world. I'm... not sure I see the relevance to this discussion, though.

What makes men and women powerless are the same damn thing.

I tip my hat to you, Sir.