Your Epidermis Is Showing (3/26/12)

[Artemisia]

Yikes. I'm going to assume by #2 that you're young or at least running with a "fairly new to being gay" crowd. The new ones tend to cling to the stereotypes a lot harder than the old queens. I know I did. I think that's partly because a lot of us are still trying to appeal to some of the society we're rejecting when we come out.

Pretty old, actually (have been admitting my own sexuality since around Popsicle Wars). But I admit my experience to my local gay community are fairly new (oh: it's not in US, btw.) Right now I'm pretty comfortable with myself. But seeing others; the enthusiasm and the-- almost religious way they hold onto their topness or bottomness.....is quite a shocking thing. Though I understand your reasoning too.

Not to mention the close distance to their closets, but that's another thing entirely.

I read someone's blog post (don't remember which blog) some months ago, discussing how some of his male friends over a number of years, when they first came out as gay, rather abruptly and awkwardly took on camp mannerisms and language ("Oh, honey") despite never having gestured or spoken that way before. It was, he said, as if they assumed they had to go camp in order to be gay properly.

Oh yes, seen it; been there, done that.
In my situation it was what you said.
In my observation it was the opposite; the people try to hold strictly to the 'male' gender role and act / boasted their 'masculinity' and 'manliness' and belittles the 'feminine, sissy' gays.

My biggest problem is those stereotypes. Before I knew about all of these expectations of what I'm suppose to be as a lesbian, I was happy and didn't really care that I swung from being fairly femme to sort of butch. Then again, when I came out in Georgia, I was pretty much told to either be butch or don't bother showing up. I chose not to show up.

[Freemage]

Captain LeBubbles,

You were a homophobe?

Once upon a time. It's not something I'm proud of, but as I've said in some thread or other, I'm living proof that you can change. It took my best friend the better part of three years and another for the right circles on the internet to get through to me, but it worked. And yeah, a lot of it was my upbringing- Podunk-Middle-of-Nowhere, Georgia isn't exactly conducive to producing QUILTBAG allies. (It's why I subscribe so strongly to the idea of patiently and calmly approaching bigots and homophobes, rather than just shouting about how wrong they are. Gets you nowhere but in the opposite direction you're trying to go.)

(And I'll admit, it's still hard for me sometimes to not go "But that's WRONG" just as a default response when I encounter something I haven't yet. But I'm getting really good at stopping mid-sentence and going "wait, no, I'm not a dick anymore. what about this makes this wrong?", and if I can't think of a good reason, I figure it must not be wrong after all.

)

(Also, I'm going to take your surprise as a good sign.)

For the record, LeBubbles, you're not the only ex-homophobe on the boards. In my defense, I was a whitebread suburban teenager during the Reagan years. The very WORD homophobic was still fairly new outside very academic circles at that point, let alone the recognition that it was a bad thing. It didn't help that the local GALA chapter at my college (Trans? Bi? Folks, seriously, those were hard-core invisible at that time) had some of the worst debaters I've ever encountered. If I ever get that time-machine, after I Gibbs-smack my younger self into sensibility, I'm going to take a week or so to give those folks a few tips on how to properly rip holes in your opponent during a debate.

[brasca]

I wasn't so much as a homophobe in high school as I was an omniphopbe. I feared everyone could be plotting against me so I distrusted everyone equally.

More seriously I spent so much of my time on the periphery of high school events and drama that I didn't know some of my classmates got pregnant while in high school or came out of the closet until much later.

[Lia S]

All this talk about the top and bottom flavors of sexuality... aren't we forgetting up, down, charm and strange?

---

I think everyone grows up as a something-phobic to some extent, fear of the unknown is a natural response and I don't believe there is anyone in the world who got bad stereotypical information from their environment and the media. Some of us are less lucky than others and have to get over more prejudice that was learned as a child.

[Louisa]

I read someone's blog post (don't remember which blog) some months ago, discussing how some of his male friends over a number of years, when they first came out as gay, rather abruptly and awkwardly took on camp mannerisms and language ("Oh, honey") despite never having gestured or spoken that way before. It was, he said, as if they assumed they had to go camp in order to be gay properly.

I've seen this sort of thing in a lot of my friends, and to some extent in myself as well (although there seem to be fewer stereotypes about how bi women act). However,I don't think "assuming they have to go camp in order to be properly gay" is the only reason. When you're closeted, you often doing anything stereotypically gay - even if you want to do those things - because you're afraid of making people suspicious about your sexuality. Then suddenly you come out and it doesn't matter if your behaviour seems gay, because people already know. So you start doing all the stereotypically gay things that you felt you couldn't do before, and talking about all the LGBT-related things that you felt you couldn't talk about before, and it is wonderful. Except some people take their enthusiasm for this new freedom so far that they briefly become someone who only talks about LGBT issues and only acts in stereotypes, which can be annoying and/or perplexing for those who knew them before.

All this talk about the top and bottom flavors of sexuality... aren't we forgetting up, down, charm and strange?

Lia wins the thread.

[Aris Katsaris]

It's all about "identity" again. People get oppressed by some small box of an identity that some oppressive culture tried to shove them in though they didn't fit there, so when they see a different box of a different "identity" that seems to fit them better, they try to shove themselves (and others) in that box instead. Instead of trying to get rid of the identity-boxing altogether.

So eventually it all depends on whether you prefer to live in a world populated by people sharing Lisa's "Screw labels" worldview or Leah's "I hate faux-mosexuals" worldview.

I prefer a Lisa-world to a Leah-world, which is why I despise "identities".

[Artemisia]

As much as we hate labels and such, the reality is that we rely upon them no matter what we say. We tend to see ourselves by our labels even as we reject them.

I find that this can be a problem if you are in a situation where you aren't really part of a group. I'm not really transsexual or transgender, but I get lumped in with them because I have to undergo the same procedures as they do. I even tend to use the terms to describe myself because I don't really have much of a choice and it avoids having to do lengthy explanations of what I am having to go through. That tends to make me feel like I'm lying about who I am, and causes me some major problems when it comes to how I feel.

[AngFdz]

Where things can get odd is that sometimes the one who is active and on top is actually the submissive partner who is seeking to please her more dominant girlfriend. It's so crazy and weird that none of the boxes we try to put all of this stuff into really fit, and, like it or not, it's all just stereotypes to try and be able to mind fuck other people.

haha! I do this with my boyfriend! Lawl I didn't know that topping or bottoming had to be part of someone's identity. Sometimes I feel like this sort of stuff is kind of arbitrary. Like identifying yourself with your preference from chocolate instead of strawberry ice cream.

[AmberBeth84]

You can add me to the ranks of the former homophobes. In my case though it was a case of 'the lady doth protest too much.' Once I came to see that there was no problem with LGBT people I had a much harder time keeping myself in the closet and started the process of transition and coming out.

[Artemisia]

I guess I have to ask. . .do I come off as being heterophobic?

[NobodySpecial]

I guess I have to ask. . .do I come off as being heterophobic?

There've been a few problematic statements. But you're self-aware and trying, so it's not like you're irredeemable.

[Artemisia]

I guess I have to ask. . .do I come off as being heterophobic?

There've been a few problematic statements. But you're self-aware and trying, so it's not like you're irredeemable.

I try very hard not to come off that way. I just. . .honestly, it seems icky. I'm doing my best to be tolerant and supportive and understanding, though. At least I'm not as bad as I was a year ago. . .I was bashing men and heterosexuality left and right.

[NobodySpecial]

I guess I have to ask. . .do I come off as being heterophobic?

There've been a few problematic statements. But you're self-aware and trying, so it's not like you're irredeemable.

I try very hard not to come off that way. I just. . .honestly, it seems icky. I'm doing my best to be tolerant and supportive and understanding, though. At least I'm not as bad as I was a year ago. . .I was bashing men and heterosexuality left and right.

Well, yes, you are a lot better than you used to be, absolutely. And I may intellectually support the idea of, say, gay male sexuality while agreeing that most of what I've seen of it isn't erotic and reminds me more of two mangy bears fighting over a steak, so I've got my moments too. It's all good.

[Artemisia]

Thank you. . .and I thought that was you

[DudeMyDadOwnsADealership]

I guess I have to ask. . .do I come off as being heterophobic?

I have yet to see the word 'breeders' pop up in your posts chronically, so no.