Your Epidermis Is Showing (3/26/12)

[Trefle]

Even for straight couples, the person physically on top is not always the sexual "aggressor" (and the "aggressor" is definitely not always physically on top, as some like to change positions purely for variety's sake).

Typically, the 'top' is the person who is on 'top'. This can be a bit difficult to determine, though. There are fifteen sexual positions that I know of where the person on the bottom is the aggressor or the person performing the most actions, or the couple are on their side. That's about twice as many positions I know of compared to those that use strap ons.

Yes; this was what I'm confused with, somewhat. One doesn't always choose to keep penetrating or being penetrated all the time.
But what about identity? -- oh.

I personally treat "top" and "bottom" as shorthand, like "got to second base", rather than a reflection of some physical reality.

Okay so;
Background dump #1; yaoi terms 'seme' and 'uke' are often interchangeable with 'top' and 'bottom' or 'dominant' and 'submissive' respectively, etymology aspect aside; but I've found out that the nuances are...different. Not only that, they have related 'roles' in play; not only in bed, but in life / the plot in question.

Background dump #2 ; a lot of gay people in my place are often.....strict, as far as roles are concerned (the irony are delicious). AFAIK, they are using 'top' and 'bottom' and 'versatile' as identity, essentially. I feel an invisible hand that says 'oh, so you like Lady Gaga, slim, loves to cook and waif-like? YOU MUST LIKE BEING PRODDED BY THICK JUICY MEAT." The same for the 'tops'.

I guess I'm confusing the contexts and meaning around the word. So it may be safe to assume that 'topping' or 'bottoming' in this case, are to be treated as an by-case occurrence, as opposed to 'identity'?

Then what sort of 'top' are we talking here, about Sara?
If topping as in, in bed; it is a possibility. Pent up Sara is pent up.
If topping as in, in 'life'; I somewhat doubt it. Not now, at least.

On the subject of the strip- I think that Sara's being rather naive, honestly. The LGBT Community can be pretty cut throat.

Well, I guess that's part of college life, isn't it? Sara's perspective of 'LGBT community' has always been....pretty close.
Aggie, Lisa, Penny, Katy-Ann; it's personal friendship rather than, a sense of community.
I can see why Sara is a little bit naive as far as clashes inside a community are concerned.

[brasca]

Why does it feel like everyone assumes that lesbian sex automatically mirrors straight sex?

Because secretly all us straight folks are Hazel Tellington?

Pretty much I mean, hell, I knew what lesbian sex was all about by the time I hit twelve. . .I had to learn about straight sex elsewhere.

That's where I've been getting a lot of my info from. Yes I know it's not the most reliable source, but clinical accounts are dull so I need a little levity.

[Artemisia]

Why does it feel like everyone assumes that lesbian sex automatically mirrors straight sex?

Because secretly all us straight folks are Hazel Tellington?

Pretty much I mean, hell, I knew what lesbian sex was all about by the time I hit twelve. . .I had to learn about straight sex elsewhere.

That's where I've been getting a lot of my info from. Yes I know it's not the most reliable source, but clinical accounts are dull so I need a little levity.

Well, with me, I just kind of sorted out what scissoring was by the time I was twelve.

Even for straight couples, the person physically on top is not always the sexual "aggressor" (and the "aggressor" is definitely not always physically on top, as some like to change positions purely for variety's sake).

Typically, the 'top' is the person who is on 'top'. This can be a bit difficult to determine, though. There are fifteen sexual positions that I know of where the person on the bottom is the aggressor or the person performing the most actions, or the couple are on their side. That's about twice as many positions I know of compared to those that use strap ons.

Yes; this was what I'm confused with, somewhat. One doesn't always choose to keep penetrating or being penetrated all the time.
But what about identity? -- oh.

I personally treat "top" and "bottom" as shorthand, like "got to second base", rather than a reflection of some physical reality.

Okay so;
Background dump #1; yaoi terms 'seme' and 'uke' are often interchangeable with 'top' and 'bottom' or 'dominant' and 'submissive' respectively, etymology aspect aside; but I've found out that the nuances are...different. Not only that, they have related 'roles' in play; not only in bed, but in life / the plot in question.

Background dump #2 ; a lot of gay people in my place are often.....strict, as far as roles are concerned (the irony are delicious). AFAIK, they are using 'top' and 'bottom' and 'versatile' as identity, essentially. I feel an invisible hand that says 'oh, so you like Lady Gaga, slim, loves to cook and waif-like? YOU MUST LIKE BEING PRODDED BY THICK JUICY MEAT." The same for the 'tops'.

I guess I'm confusing the contexts and meaning around the word. So it may be safe to assume that 'topping' or 'bottoming' in this case, are to be treated as an by-case occurrence, as opposed to 'identity'?

Then what sort of 'top' are we talking here, about Sara?
If topping as in, in bed; it is a possibility. Pent up Sara is pent up.
If topping as in, in 'life'; I somewhat doubt it. Not now, at least.

It's something of an issue in our male/female society. There's a lot of thinking that you must be strictly male or female, and even in a gay/lesbian relationship, that gets mirrored. However, I've met people who are very fluid in their sexuality and sexual nature as well as their gender, but, for instance, I am very strictly female and lesbian. What is more, I'm very strictly femme. Where things can get odd is that sometimes the one who is active and on top is actually the submissive partner who is seeking to please her more dominant girlfriend. It's so crazy and weird that none of the boxes we try to put all of this stuff into really fit, and, like it or not, it's all just stereotypes to try and be able to mind fuck other people.

Oh yes, and as I said before- less than a third of gay men actually like getting poked or poking.

[NobodySpecial]

The other part about 'top' or 'bottom' has one other complication, which I found out about when I (the 6'3" guy) met the girl (all 5'5" of her). I prefer bottom in those cases because however nice the sex might be on top, the resultant trip to the hospital after, say, breaking the bed frame ( not that that ever happened, no sir) might not be worth it.

Just saying.

[Trefle]

It's something of an issue in our male/female society. There's a lot of thinking that you must be strictly male or female, and even in a gay/lesbian relationship, that gets mirrored. However, I've met people who are very fluid in their sexuality and sexual nature as well as their gender, but, for instance, I am very strictly female and lesbian. What is more, I'm very strictly femme. Where things can get odd is that sometimes the one who is active and on top is actually the submissive partner who is seeking to please her more dominant girlfriend. It's so crazy and weird that none of the boxes we try to put all of this stuff into really fit, and, like it or not, it's all just stereotypes to try and be able to mind fuck other people.

Oh yes, and as I said before- less than a third of gay men actually like getting poked or poking.

/siiigh
It's really confusing when you try to sort -- or simplify the meaning. To find one core from a 'term' and live peacefully. I guess it's better left....like that, as far as understanding goes. The chaos of it all.

It's rather beautiful anyway.

[brasca]

Why does it feel like everyone assumes that lesbian sex automatically mirrors straight sex?

Because secretly all us straight folks are Hazel Tellington?

Pretty much I mean, hell, I knew what lesbian sex was all about by the time I hit twelve. . .I had to learn about straight sex elsewhere.

That's where I've been getting a lot of my info from. Yes I know it's not the most reliable source, but clinical accounts are dull so I need a little levity.

Well, with me, I just kind of sorted out what scissoring was by the time I was twelve.

I forgot to mention Something Positive's Lisa and Monette. Especially the strip where Lisa and Fred pulled a prank on Monette by organizing her sex toys:

http://somethingpositive.net/sp06232011.shtml

and

http://somethingpositive.net/sp06242011.shtml

[Captain LeBubbles]

This thread is making me remember my eight grade sex-ed class, when the teacher tried to explain gay and lesbian sex to us. Have you ever seen that PSA about how gay men are all feminine and incapable of monogamy? It was like that, only worse. She breezed pretty much every stereotype, ever, in approximately ten minutes. If I ever get my time machine working I'm going to go back to that time and punch her in the face* and then set little me right. That can't have been good for the little budding homophobe I was at that time. (You know what the great part is? Even then, as bad as I was, even then that explanation didn't sit right with me for some reason.)

*I probably wouldn't actually punch her. But I would explain to her why she was talking so much bollocks. With diagrams. :D

[Artemisia]

Captain LeBubbles,

You were a homophobe?

[Captain LeBubbles]

Captain LeBubbles,

You were a homophobe?

Once upon a time. It's not something I'm proud of, but as I've said in some thread or other, I'm living proof that you can change. It took my best friend the better part of three years and another for the right circles on the internet to get through to me, but it worked. And yeah, a lot of it was my upbringing- Podunk-Middle-of-Nowhere, Georgia isn't exactly conducive to producing QUILTBAG allies. (It's why I subscribe so strongly to the idea of patiently and calmly approaching bigots and homophobes, rather than just shouting about how wrong they are. Gets you nowhere but in the opposite direction you're trying to go.)

(And I'll admit, it's still hard for me sometimes to not go "But that's WRONG" just as a default response when I encounter something I haven't yet. But I'm getting really good at stopping mid-sentence and going "wait, no, I'm not a dick anymore. what about this makes this wrong?", and if I can't think of a good reason, I figure it must not be wrong after all.

:D)

(Also, I'm going to take your surprise as a good sign.)

[Artemisia]

I spent from age 17 to age 32 in Georgia, mostly Brunswick and Savannah, so I know what you mean about your upbringing. Heck, the QUILTBAG community there was never very nice either. They were very defensive, very angry, and very aggressive. I was pushed to the outside a lot and not allowed to be part of the Community because I wasn't the stereotypical lesbian. I remember having a wonderful, beautiful friend who died of a drug overdose because she was pushed towards being a butch lesbian when she was really very femme, and got wrapped up in the partying and trying to fit in.

And, LeBubbles, I haven't seen anything negative about your reaction to anything we've discussed, but I can be a bit blind to some things. I mean, I'm not exactly the person to be throwing stones here. My attitude towards men can be downright horrific- and I've already been called on it twice.

[Captain LeBubbles]

I spent from age 17 to age 32 in Georgia, mostly Brunswick and Savannah, so I know what you mean about your upbringing. Heck, the QUILTBAG community there was never very nice either. They were very defensive, very angry, and very aggressive. I was pushed to the outside a lot and not allowed to be part of the Community because I wasn't the stereotypical lesbian. I remember having a wonderful, beautiful friend who died of a drug overdose because she was pushed towards being a butch lesbian when she was really very femme, and got wrapped up in the partying and trying to fit in.

Ouch. My sympathies, my friend. (Also lol, Brunswick's just a hop a skip and a jump from here, I think) This place is bad enough when you grew up with it, I can't imagine coming here after you're mostly grown up. Fortunately for me, Friend moved to town before I was too far gone, and after she abandoned me and moved to another state, I found the right corners of the internet to finish what she started.

[Artemisia]

Yeah it was not very nice. I moved home to Vermont five years ago now. I'm glad to be here even though the emotional scars are still pretty deep.

[Bardlp]

Background dump #2 ; a lot of gay people in my place are often.....strict, as far as roles are concerned (the irony are delicious). AFAIK, they are using 'top' and 'bottom' and 'versatile' as identity, essentially. I feel an invisible hand that says 'oh, so you like Lady Gaga, slim, loves to cook and waif-like? YOU MUST LIKE BEING PRODDED BY THICK JUICY MEAT." The same for the 'tops'.

I guess I'm confusing the contexts and meaning around the word. So it may be safe to assume that 'topping' or 'bottoming' in this case, are to be treated as an by-case occurrence, as opposed to 'identity'?

Yikes. I'm going to assume by #2 that you're young or at least running with a "fairly new to being gay" crowd. The new ones tend to cling to the stereotypes a lot harder than the old queens. I know I did. I think that's partly because a lot of us are still trying to appeal to some of the society we're rejecting when we come out.

But, yeah, basically. Most of the gay people (and a lot of the BDSMers I know) treat the top/bottom/switch matrix as an event or preference. Identity tends to get attached to (and this is only with the BDSM players I know, the vanilla queers don't use this language) the dom/sub/switch matrix. It blew my mind the first time I met someone who was a dom-bottom in one relationship and a sub-top in another.

[Alice Macher]

I'm going to assume by #2 that you're young or at least running with a "fairly new to being gay" crowd. The new ones tend to cling to the stereotypes a lot harder than the old queens. I know I did. I think that's partly because a lot of us are still trying to appeal to some of the society we're rejecting when we come out.

I read someone's blog post (don't remember which blog) some months ago, discussing how some of his male friends over a number of years, when they first came out as gay, rather abruptly and awkwardly took on camp mannerisms and language ("Oh, honey") despite never having gestured or spoken that way before. It was, he said, as if they assumed they had to go camp in order to be gay properly.

[Trefle]

Yikes. I'm going to assume by #2 that you're young or at least running with a "fairly new to being gay" crowd. The new ones tend to cling to the stereotypes a lot harder than the old queens. I know I did. I think that's partly because a lot of us are still trying to appeal to some of the society we're rejecting when we come out.

Pretty old, actually (have been admitting my own sexuality since around Popsicle Wars). But I admit my experience to my local gay community are fairly new (oh: it's not in US, btw.) Right now I'm pretty comfortable with myself. But seeing others; the enthusiasm and the-- almost religious way they hold onto their topness or bottomness.....is quite a shocking thing. Though I understand your reasoning too.

Not to mention the close distance to their closets, but that's another thing entirely.

I read someone's blog post (don't remember which blog) some months ago, discussing how some of his male friends over a number of years, when they first came out as gay, rather abruptly and awkwardly took on camp mannerisms and language ("Oh, honey") despite never having gestured or spoken that way before. It was, he said, as if they assumed they had to go camp in order to be gay properly.

Oh yes, seen it; been there, done that.
In my situation it was what you said.
In my observation it was the opposite; the people try to hold strictly to the 'male' gender role and act / boasted their 'masculinity' and 'manliness' and belittles the 'feminine, sissy' gays.

But, yeah, basically. Most of the gay people (and a lot of the BDSMers I know) treat the top/bottom/switch matrix as an event or preference. Identity tends to get attached to (and this is only with the BDSM players I know, the vanilla queers don't use this language) the dom/sub/switch matrix. It blew my mind the first time I met someone who was a dom-bottom in one relationship and a sub-top in another.

I see. Thanks! <3
That's quite an interesting blend you've met there. I've heard things Artemisia just said; some people top to 'please' their dommes, but....that's quite a drastic change, to say the very least?