I'm so off-topic lately. D:

[Fen]

Arranged marriages still take place, though. =/. I mean, that's kind of what I mean. By the time this came out not wanting to be involved in an arranged marriage is the normal thing to do, because arranged marriages are perceived as wrong/weird/undesireable/whatever by the Westerners. It's more like they do what is expected of them(by Western audience standards, at least.)

Mulan was pretty awesome =) though I didn't know she ended up in the disney princess line-up.

[Valerie]

Arranged marriages still take place, though. =/. I mean, that's kind of what I mean. By the time this came out not wanting to be involved in an arranged marriage is the normal thing to do, because arranged marriages are perceived as wrong/weird/undesireable/whatever by the Westerners. It's more like they do what is expected of them(by Western audience standards, at least.)

Morals vary. In a story set in the present in the western world, yes, a character who's rejecting an arranged marriage would be weird to see, because we just don't do that over here. So it would be silly, because it's a non-issue in this time and place.

But in Ancient China, arranged marriage was completely normal, so Mulan was going against social standards. That makes it a story of empowerment to the target audience. It was less, "She's doing what our western society expects her to do" and more "She's fighting for her rights." I think a lot of people would agree with me that the person you marry is a big deal and should be your own decision.

Like... What if we had a story set in the late 1800s in America, when women were fighting for the right to vote? We didn't get it until 1920, and there are plenty of places throughout the world where women are still not allowed to vote because they're not (and were not, in the case of the U.S.) considered competent enough to make such major decisions. To a western audience (anyplace where women have rights), we're going to watch this movie and cheer for the heroine, because it seems ridiculous to us that women shouldn't be able to vote. Some less progressive countries would watch it and probably say, "This is weird, why are they letting the women do that?" The same way I'm sure some countries would do with Mulan rejecting an arranged marriage.

Mulan was pretty awesome =) though I didn't know she ended up in the disney princess line-up.

Yup. <3 Technically, she's not a princess, but she's a woman who holds high status in her country, so I guess they considered that close enough. Plus they needed to make sure they had an Asian princess for completion's sake, I guess.

Also, go watch The Princess and the Frog, because Tiana is the best princess.

[sun tzu]

http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2010/12/24/my-little-non-homophobic-non-racist-non-smart-shaming-pony-a-rebuttal/

For those of you who want to read but haven't looked it up yet.

Worth noting that this rebuttal was written by the awesome Lauren Faust, the creator of the (also awesome) show.

we do children no favours by offering them only sanitized, nicey-nicey pablum like Strawberry Shortcake or the original, 1980s My Little Pony where nothing truly negative, disturbing or, yes, even a bit scary ever happens.

Wwwwwwwhat?!
Have you ever seen that show?!
For cripes' sake, Rescue at Midnight Castle is pure nightmare fuel once you get past the first two minutes of sugar. Crunch the Rockdog had the villain turning the protagonists to stone one-by-one, on the background of the ponies getting on Wind Whistler's case for having no feelings (Wind Whistler was the Spock of the group). The Return of Tambelon told the story of an inter-dimensional city invading Dream Valley, trying to enslave the population and drag them all to the Realm of Darkness.
My Little Pony was one of the darkest cartoons of the 80s. But for some reason, people seem convinced it was a harmless, lovey-dovey show about ponies prancing around and eating cake.

I, ah, kinda review the whole thing.

[Freemage]

On Disney:

You missed one of my faves--Rapunzel from Tangled. Seriously--the guy is very clearly HER sidekick, useful and all that, but ultimately, she's the driving force. And at the end? She is explicitly described as the ruler, with him as her consort.

Mind you, Disney Death scene produced one of my 'worst' off-color comments in reaction to a kid's film, but that's neither here nor there.

[sgtrock]

BTW, completely offtopic, does anyone think that the things we read in our childhood were kind of...not right? Like the happy prince, the girl with the matches, the story of a mother, the tin soldier, etc?

"Not right?" That's one way of looking at it, I suppose. Another way is to realize that we do children no favours by offering them only sanitized, nicey-nicey pablum like Strawberry Shortcake or the original, 1980s My Little Pony where nothing truly negative, disturbing or, yes, even a bit scary ever happens. Folk and fairy tales, as many an educator and child psychologist will tell you, help children confront their anxieties and fears about their parents and siblings, about what's there when the lights go out, about people who look or talk differently from them, and to work through these feelings symbolically and safely.

Read Bruno Bettelheim's The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales for a more in-depth examination of this. Young children can handle, and deserve, more than Elmo picture books.

Which is one of the reasons that the Harry Potter story sold so well. It's still one of the few recent fantasies aimed at kids that doesn't talk down to them.

[Shadrach]

Wwwwwwwhat?!
Have you ever seen that show?!
For cripes' sake, Rescue at Midnight Castle is pure nightmare fuel once you get past the first two minutes of sugar. Crunch the Rockdog had the villain turning the protagonists to stone one-by-one, on the background of the ponies getting on Wind Whistler's case for having no feelings (Wind Whistler was the Spock of the group). The Return of Tambelon told the story of an inter-dimensional city invading Dream Valley, trying to enslave the population and drag them all to the Realm of Darkness.
My Little Pony was one of the darkest cartoons of the 80s. But for some reason, people seem convinced it was a harmless, lovey-dovey show about ponies prancing around and eating cake.

I, ah, kinda review the whole thing.

Well, I'm answered. That'll teach me, huh? Apparently this fortysomething dude, who was a preteen/early teen when those shows were around, has lumped them all together indiscriminately.

[MimsyBorogove]

Seriously, *Bettelheim*? You might as well enjoy 'The Golden Bough'!

*ivory-tower tittering*

But seriously, that man was fucked up. He believed that autism was caused by resentful mothers not loving their children, he supported the position of 'Eichmann in Jerusalem' that the eponymous Nazi was just doing his job...I took three courses on fairy tale theory at UBC. I'm of a Jungian mind about them myself. Bettelheim never looked beyond Freud, never felt the need to. I find him lazy.

My point is that it doesn't really matter if the kid's entertainment in question is awesome (like MlP:FiM) or mediocre (like, say, Catdog). The point is to be critical, and demand that enough of the positive stuff is made. Ariel from TLM is a difficult character to grapple with. I'd argue she's a far better feminist role model than Belle, but Disney has gotten better in the past twenty years since she was made.

[Shadrach]

Nope, sorry. Bettelheim's opinions on other matters aren't relevant to the topic of discussion here, which is fairy tales. Agree or disagree with his analyses of fairy tales, but they are to be taken on their own terms alone.

[sun tzu]

Wwwwwwwhat?!
Have you ever seen that show?!
For cripes' sake, Rescue at Midnight Castle is pure nightmare fuel once you get past the first two minutes of sugar. Crunch the Rockdog had the villain turning the protagonists to stone one-by-one, on the background of the ponies getting on Wind Whistler's case for having no feelings (Wind Whistler was the Spock of the group). The Return of Tambelon told the story of an inter-dimensional city invading Dream Valley, trying to enslave the population and drag them all to the Realm of Darkness.
My Little Pony was one of the darkest cartoons of the 80s. But for some reason, people seem convinced it was a harmless, lovey-dovey show about ponies prancing around and eating cake.

I, ah, kinda review the whole thing.

Well, I'm answered. That'll teach me, huh? Apparently this fortysomething dude, who was a preteen/early teen when those shows were around, has lumped them all together indiscriminately.

For what it's worth, that's a pretty common mistake. My Little Pony has a pretty bad rep for some reason.

[Valerie]

I'd argue [Ariel]'s a far better feminist role model than Belle, but Disney has gotten better in the past twenty years since she was made.

...How? Ariel sold her voice to be with a love interest. Belle is shown as being well-read and intelligent and not quite so love-crazy. She's got a healthy dose of Action Girl, for the time period and society she was in, and her love story happened as a result of her actions, unlike Ariel, whose entire movie happened because she had a crush.

[MudFlap33]

I'd argue [Ariel]'s a far better feminist role model than Belle, but Disney has gotten better in the past twenty years since she was made.

...How? Ariel sold her voice to be with a love interest. Belle is shown as being well-read and intelligent and not quite so love-crazy. She's got a healthy dose of Action Girl, for the time period and society she was in, and her love story happened as a result of her actions, unlike Ariel, whose entire movie happened because she had a crush.

Well, Ariel was kind of tricked into selling her voice; Divine--I mean, Ursula--made it sound like it would be recorded or briefly borrowed, not sold. She was also willing to fight against her whole upbringing and society in order to do what she wanted and to become the person she wanted to be. You could even draw race allegories to what she did, perhaps (her father forbids her to see this guy because he's so "different" and their societies just "don't mix"). YMMV on whether you find this reading of Ariel heroic or just plain bratty (my grandmother, for instance, couldn't stand Ariel because "she [sasses] her father!"). I'm kinda just playing the devil's advocate here, as I'm kind of in the middle about Ariel (she shows courage, sure, but for a guy she's never spoken to??), and am basically disinterested in and dislike Disney movies in general. (Yeah, Mulan was cool, but come on, how could they gloss over the homoerotic-ness of the Prince being totally attracted to Mulan when he still thought she was a dude?)

[Freemage]

I'd argue [Ariel]'s a far better feminist role model than Belle, but Disney has gotten better in the past twenty years since she was made.

...How? Ariel sold her voice to be with a love interest. Belle is shown as being well-read and intelligent and not quite so love-crazy. She's got a healthy dose of Action Girl, for the time period and society she was in, and her love story happened as a result of her actions, unlike Ariel, whose entire movie happened because she had a crush.

One really can make the argument that Belle is a walking case-study of Stockholm Syndrome, though. And, of course, you have the further issue that the whole thing is kicked off by the most wicked witch to ever be mentioned in a movie.

Think about it. Sure, the prince was a dick. Fine, curse him, make him a beast unless he can find love in a period of time, teach him to look beyond the surface, yadda yadda yadda.

But unless you're telling me that the entire castle staff gathered around and spat on the crone for good measure (including Chip Potts, remember), then she essentially put all of their lives in the hands of their narcissistic master's ability to seduce someone while suffering from a terminal case of five o'clock shadow, for no better reason than that they happened to show up to work that day. And she walks free after it all--no punishment, no attempt to hunt her down, just a quick footnote easily forgotten. SRSLY, WTF?

Ariel gets tricked while at an emotionally vulnerable moment, and then takes responsibility for dealing with her situation. Belle starts out strong and ends up placating a violent abuser to keep from getting beaten. Neither's a great endorsement of female empowerment.

So go watch Tangled.

[Valerie]

Neither's a great endorsement of female empowerment.

So go watch Tangled.

I'll continue worshipping Tiana, thank you.

No, um, I actually haven't seen Tangled yet. I'm mildly put off by the fact that they changed the title, assuming "Rapunzel" wouldn't attract a male audience-- I'm actually more put off by the fact that it's probably true... ('Course, that doesn't mean the movie is inherently off-putting, so I will attempt to watch it at some point.)

But Tiana is always gonna be my lady. <3

[Alice Macher]

Disney Schmisney. Looking for a strong, independent, not-beholden-to-a-man fairy tale princess?

Meet Elizabeth, AKA The Paper Bag Princess.

This needs to be made into a movie. This.

[Valerie]

Disney Schmisney. Looking for a strong, independent, not-beholden-to-a-man fairy tale princess?

Meet Elizabeth, AKA The Paper Bag Princess.

This needs to be made into a movie. This.

Why have I never heard of this and why is it not a movie yet.