[02/07/07]Knife...

[Aris Katsaris]

Magick -- I kinda think there's a difference between even accepting someone as your hero and as your personal god. We all know Stan has placed Rich on a pedestal, but right now it seems to me you're depicting Stan as if he has actually *deified* Rich.

I'm with Jupi and Kitsuko on this.

[adamiani]

Magick -- I kinda think there's a difference between even accepting someone as your hero and as your personal god. We all know Stan has placed Rich on a pedestal, but right now it seems to me you're depicting Stan as if he has actually *deified* Rich.

I'm with Jupi and Kitsuko on this.

More to the point, there's nothing to differentiate Stan's reaction if this is shock because his personal god turned out to be mortal from the reasonable shock anyone would experience from seeing their best friend stabbed (perhaps fatally) and pass out in front of them. T COULD be writing the former, I mean it's totally possible-- but there's no way to differentiate that from a much more normal reaction.

I suppose it's a litmus test for what you believe the soap-opera-quotient of P&A is. If it's moderate-soap, he's just shocked because-- you know, blood, best friend, knife, stabbity stabbity, sucking chest wound. If it's high soap, then he's shocked because his complicated psychosexual dependence upon Rich as a surrogate ego has been shaken to its very core!

And there's no way to definitively tell, bereft of context, which is true-- though one might suggest that Occam's razor applies.

[iRobot]

I think it's odd that no one seems to think that maybe Stan is in shock not because of Hero Worship, but rather because one of his best friends might be on the verge of death, and that he witnessed it firsthand. (edit: Kitsuko seems to see it the same way) Sure, there might be a bit of that obsession in there, too, but I can see nearly anyone going into that frame of mind if they just saw someone take a knife in the chest.

Y'know, if it Stan didn't have such a distorted view of Rich, or if it was Jack bleeding on the ground instead of Rich, I'd be inclined to think that it's nothing more than a friend shocked into inaction, too. However, that's not the case here. It's been made abundantly clear time and again, that Stan's idolization of Rich is extremely fanatical and way beyond the realm of normal friendship. It's because of this that the idea that this is "normal shock" doesn't even enter the equation for some of us. No, given the many instances where Stan has put Rich into the same league as Achilles or Beowulf, I would find it extremely odd if this incident didn't cause Stan to experience a sort of existential crisis.

And before anyone says anything about how Jack seems to be handling it fine, it's clear that different people react differently to the same situation - Jack's got a good head on his shoulders, and know exactly what to do... but since Jack's doing the call for help, what could Stab possibly do to help now? Who wouldn't be at a loss in that situation?

I dunno.... Crowd control comes to mind--don't let anyone get too close to Rich. Go kick Rich-Stabber's ass. Repeatedly. Seek out asnyone with knowledge of first aid.. Staying close to Rich, talking to him and trying to be reassuring. There's a lot that Stan could do.

[Aggie FanBoi]

But this looks a lot like a school hallway, certainly not a club.

Also, just what is the damage? It's serious enough to make Rich pass out, but I still can't imagine that that knife could be thrust through the sternum. Maybe Rich just fainted?

The major thing about the sternum, is that it's bone connected to the ribs by cartilage. Going by the slight percieved shift from the initial panel, to the current panel, currently it looks slightly to our left, Rich's right instead of direct center, there's a few posibiliities with that placement. First, is the direct, it punched through the sternum, the actual hard bone. Second, it missed the sternum and penetrated through the cartilage, meaning it's not a direct wound to the heart. And the final option being it missed the sternum and cartilage and penetrated to the side of the sternum and into the gap of the ribs and cartilage.

Now, also what hasn't been taken into account is the length of the knife itself. Is this a typical folding pocket knife, or are we looking at a locking blade Buck Knife? If it's the latter, in any one of the above scenarios I can picture heart perforation, lung perforation or an artery being caught. As far as the kinfe through the sternum... While it's difficult and uncommon, but given the circumstances I could picture it. If you analyze the intial swing/impact it looked to be a curved overhand strike. Most thrusts like that, especially with a knife, tend to lean towards the forceful impact method rather then the quick jab or slice manuever. If you've ever held an ice pick and were chipping at large blocks of ice that's the kind of impact I picture when Rich was stabbed.

Now if it is indeed the person that's hinted at, the one Rich had beaten up when Aggie saw him, put a bunch of pent up anger, humiliation and agression behind that overhand swing. Although the angle of the knife protrusion doesn't lend well to that theory, the handle is at an almost 90 degree angle to Rich, if it was an overhand thrust the handle would probably be at an upward angle compared to the point of entry. The sternum, while tough, is also victim to genetic make up. On male subjects the bone can vary from as little as 1/8th of an inch to one half of an inch thick.

Too many variables in the human body and how one reacts to things.

[Fork]

you call that a knife? thats like a potato peeler.....

woulda been funny tho if he was stabbed with a fork....

[adamiani]

Now if it is indeed the person that's hinted at, the one Rich had beaten up when Aggie saw him, put a bunch of pent up anger, humiliation and agression behind that overhand swing. Although the angle of the knife protrusion doesn't lend well to that theory, the handle is at an almost 90 degree angle to Rich, if it was an overhand thrust the handle would probably be at an upward angle compared to the point of entry. The sternum, while tough, is also victim to genetic make up. On male subjects the bone can vary from as little as 1/8th of an inch to one half of an inch thick.

Too many variables in the human body and how one reacts to things.

Not to mention any potential inaccuracy factor in the strip itself-- if neither T. nor Giselle has medical training, the script could very well have described the wound simply as a knife sticking out of the middle of his chest.

[oddtail]

Not to mention any potential inaccuracy factor in the strip itself-- if neither T. nor Giselle has medical training, the script could very well have described the wound simply as a knife sticking out of the middle of his chest.

Thank Heavens, I'm not the only person who thought of THAT .

Seriously, too much analysing is a bad idea because such details are, well, only possible to discern assuming the drawing in question is perfectly realistic. Which is doubtful, always, for ANY comic art, but especially so for fuzzy stuff like medicine.

I mean, I have yet to see realistically portrayed wound made by a bullet exiting human body (and perhaps that's good, since - based on the photos I've seen - it looks rather nasty).

[adamiani]

Y'know, if it Stan didn't have such a distorted view of Rich, or if it was Jack bleeding on the ground instead of Rich, I'd be inclined to think that it's nothing more than a friend shocked into inaction, too. However, that's not the case here. It's been made abundantly clear time and again, that Stan's idolization of Rich is extremely fanatical and way beyond the realm of normal friendship. It's because of this that the idea that this is "normal shock" doesn't even enter the equation for some of us. No, given the many instances where Stan has put Rich into the same league as Achilles or Beowulf, I would find it extremely odd if this incident didn't cause Stan to experience a sort of existential crisis.

You're quite right, in that i's likely that some character development will occur vis a vis Stan's hero-worship for Rich as a result of this incident-- but I don't know that it's clear that we can read that into this particular strip (though it's certainly *possible*).

If Jack (a friend) was stabbed, you'd read this reaction as normal shock.
If Michelle (his defacto girlfriend) was stabbed, you'd read this reaction as normal shock.
If Penny (a minor enemy) wad stabbed, you'd read this reaction as normal shock.
If Helen (an acquaintance) was stabbed, you'd read this reaction as normal shock.
If Liz (a stranger) was stabbed, you'd read this reaction as normal shock.

Since Rich was stabbed, you read the same reaction as evidence that Stan's entire world has crumbled around his ears? What reaction, then, if any, would indicate normal shock in this circumstance?

[Aggie FanBoi]

Not to mention any potential inaccuracy factor in the strip itself-- if neither T. nor Giselle has medical training, the script could very well have described the wound simply as a knife sticking out of the middle of his chest.

Of course, it's my flaw , I tend to over analyze things from a non-fictional standpoint, conform them to my own personal view. Even when it's fiction. It's why I can't bear to watch any Hollywood action flick based on a true event. I have to physically suspend my own analysis and read/watch it for what it is, a great story, with great artwork, and a captivating way of involving the reader. It's something I must learn to do with P&A. Hence the reason I've merely lurked since I found this strip and found the forums.

Hey, what can I say, I've a job which gives me much free time to sit, think and analyze. As I tell everyone here "If I ever really have to do work, it usually means something REALLY bad is happening" lol.

[Davidj]

Since Rich was stabbed, you read the same reaction as evidence that Stan's entire world has crumbled around his ears? What reaction, then, if any, would indicate normal shock in this circumstance?

I'm not sure that Stan's specific reaction matters (except insofar as it shows he isn't holding it together). The real clue people are going on is the "You might not notice two people..."

[TCampbell]

Occam's razor.

[Fork]

Occam's razor.

i hardly see the current set of events as a phenomenom... lol

people just like to jibber jabber

[Magick Lorelai]

*facepalm*Well, I DID say it was more the fun of speculating than anything else. I KNOW, and it's entirely plausible and even likely that Stan is just reacting to the fact that his friend was stabbed. But, it's almost too simple- remember, everything put into a comic is there for a reason, even if for subtle foreshadowing for something.

But even if he doesn't deify Rich, a hero is still difficult to defeat, and sometimes transcend human limits. Stan may just not have consciously thought about the possibility of Rich being stabbed(which could happen for any individual he knows). But, it's fun to speculate on more, to see if we're either very, very RIGHT, or disastrously, monstrously, gloriously wrong.

[talkative]

everything put into a comic is there for a reason, even if for subtle foreshadowing for something.

Some writers don't use foreshadowing. And some aren't good enough at what they do yet to be able to pull that off. Sometimes, what happens is just what happens, and it doesn't really have any hidden meaning. (That being said, I think T. is a good writer and does use foreshadowing. But you said "a".)

I think Stan's reaction might be more of a combination of hero/friend being stabbed than one moreso than the other. His friend got stabbed-- out of nowhere. It's reasonable for him to be shocked, some people react that way. But Rich is also his hero, and while I don't think Rich is outright deified in his mind, he has said that Rich is more than them, somehow, so he does have this guy up on a pedastel. I think seeing Rich get stabbed his going to make him re-think some things, especially if it turns out that this is the guy that they beat up. I don't think he's going to have an out-and-out mental breakdown and spend the next few weeks crying his eyes out under his bed because his universe has crumbled around him-- but he might wonder at some of the things they've been doing and try to curb Rich's reckless behavior a little more, because he doesn't want him to get hurt again.

[iRobot]

Since Rich was stabbed, you read the same reaction as evidence that Stan's entire world has crumbled around his ears?

Yep. That's because I'm not arriving at my conclusion simply because of the visual clues presented in this particular strip, my conclusion is based upon the behavioral clues from previous strips and applying them to the situation at hand. It's a matter of putting things into context rather than just isolating the situation.