09/14/2011 - Millicelebrity

[Fen]

I don't think it was anti-gay so much as "the looks they got". Even in a fairly tolerant environment gay couples get "the look"(I know this sounds lame, but if you see it you know it). Though it is not as heavy as throwing stuff at them or yelling or beating them up, it can leave quite a mark.

So yeah, she's not saying it was an anti-gay hatefest, but was most likely heteronormative enough to make the couples stand out. It's good that Brandi decided to notice it and find it abnormal. <3.

(I was at a very accepting highschool, but they gays in the school were not very out about it. The one who was loud about it got teased and talked about a lot, but that may have been cause he was kind of obnoxious and weird. And we were being fed the tolerance speech on a daily basis). Everyone loved the bi girls though >.>

[Freemage]

Oh, I don't doubt that for a second - hell, I've seen it happen. I've had a few friends that never felt safe coming out until adulthood. I had a friend who tried to kill himself multiple times before he finally came out - and despite the harassment he got, he found wearing his sexuality on his sleeve was the best weapon he had against the high-school harassment. But that was one situation and it doesn't fit all.

My only complaint was that Brandi dropped a hell of a bomb in LGBT relations at Belleville when the comic we were given didn't show it. In this little fictional universe, I can only go off of what I've been shown. When our bigots are attention-seekers like Tharqa or complete moonbats like Xena and not someone we know represented the student body at large such as Stan, it's hard to see Belleville High as a cesspool of anti-gay bigotry.

Well, there was someone off-screen declaring that AIDS is Gods' punishment for gays, which is a fairly 'mainstream' thought among the anti-gay crowd. (Not looking up the strip, it was the one with Aggie reacting to several outrageous comments in rapid succession; also noteworthy as Cyndi's first appearance, IIRC.)

[Freemage]

And seduction through physical means is very much what it looks like here.

See, the problem with that is whilst the body reacts to a stimulus the mind does not necessarily have to follow it.

Karen was a bunchload of issues with no experience in what is or is not acceptable(see her idea of pick-up lines or her treatment of Marshall in the shower), and is just rolling with it because she sees her body reacting, which shouldn't be enough to make Omar's moves OK. Just because the end result was that Karen enjoyed it and moved on to hiding the fact rather than thinking about it doesn't change the original situation. When a girl says no you don't grope or whatever it is he is doing to her. You leave her alone. At this point they have not even kissed yet he is obviously forcing himself on her(until she accepts that is). Instead of accepting her excuses he calls them half-assed (empathizing with some not-shown-but-clearly-implied sexual moves) and manipulates her into agreement.

Let me put it this way. If, in the blanked-out panel, Karen were to turn around, grab his arm, yank him into the bathroom, jump up on the counter, and then set everything up before we begin Panel 5, what he did was still wrong--it was still sexual molestation, which I believe is at least a misdemeanor, and could be bumped to a felony charge based on what the contact was. But I would definitely say the follow-up sex, in that scenario, was not rape. You're absolutely correct that subsequent opinion-shifts on the part of the victim do not change the consent equation with regard to the initial offense. Now if HE remained in physical control during all of Panel 4, physically moving her into the position we see in Panel 5, then I would say it was a clear case of rape.

[maritza]

Ask T on the proper thread about that particular moment outside of the bathroom. I saw the script, but I don't feel myself with the right to talk about it to you guys.

In ANY case, Karen's reluctance always looked to me more like a struggle with herself, not with Omar. He's caressing her lips while talking. His other hand is on her hip. She's sitting on the counter, not cornered against a wall. She's not using her hands to shove Omar away, or to take his hands off her. She just sits there and lets Omar caress her while she makes a lukewarm objection of the "oh no, we can't" kind.

Compare this scene with the Stan scene. Stan was trying to stick his hand up her skirt. BAM, she closes her knees. She plainly says NO, I HAVE MARSHALL.

Karen and Omar are shown flirting through various moment at different parties, exchanging hot glances and such. That's why Samantha was PISSED. Karen felt nothing for Stan.

[IS_Wolf]

And seduction through physical means is very much what it looks like here.

See, the problem with that is whilst the body reacts to a stimulus the mind does not necessarily have to follow it.

Karen was a bunchload of issues with no experience in what is or is not acceptable(see her idea of pick-up lines or her treatment of Marshall in the shower), and is just rolling with it because she sees her body reacting, which shouldn't be enough to make Omar's moves OK. Just because the end result was that Karen enjoyed it and moved on to hiding the fact rather than thinking about it doesn't change the original situation. When a girl says no you don't grope or whatever it is he is doing to her. You leave her alone. At this point they have not even kissed yet he is obviously forcing himself on her(until she accepts that is). Instead of accepting her excuses he calls them half-assed (empathizing with some not-shown-but-clearly-implied sexual moves) and manipulates her into agreement.

I'm far more inclined to call what Karen did to Marshall rape or even sexual molestation, rather than the encounter between Omar and Karen.
It's called mixed signals and Karen was sending them out by the bucket load. The no no no is just fake modesty/being coy on her part.

Like I said, I've been the shoulder that's been cried on because a trigger set off another memory surge. About the shame on how the body was responding even though the lady in question wanted nothing to do with the guy. Even that link you provided shows the reaction of someone who was actually raped.

Now compare that to how Karen reacted.

Calling that encounter a rape is pretty much a slap in the face for actual rape victims imnsho.

But by all means ask T. in the Q&A thread which one of us is correct, if he says otherwise, than I'll change my tune.

[rebochan]

I guess to some extent I see the point about the "heteronormative" environment. Still seems a bit odd from Brandi's perspective, but Fred certainly complained about it enough. Though now I seriously believe the guy was using "heteronomative environment" as a way to deal with being insecure about relationships (and this strip is him getting over it). It might be alternative character interpretation though

Well, there was someone off-screen declaring that AIDS is Gods' punishment for gays, which is a fairly 'mainstream' thought among the anti-gay crowd. (Not looking up the strip, it was the one with Aggie reacting to several outrageous comments in rapid succession; also noteworthy as Cyndi's first appearance, IIRC.)

Whew, I actually remember that one now. Though the guys in question were speaking rather generally - I guess it would have helped if someone had given Sara crap before the rape video or well after it died down. Or if Daph had gotten some blowback once she stopped using Fred as a beard (...wait...) and starting dating Sara.

[Freemage]

I guess to some extent I see the point about the "heteronormative" environment. Still seems a bit odd from Brandi's perspective, but Fred certainly complained about it enough. Though now I seriously believe the guy was using "heteronomative environment" as a way to deal with being insecure about relationships (and this strip is him getting over it). It might be alternative character interpretation though

Oh, I actually agree with you, there; Fred's convo with Penny at the graduation ceremony made it clear that he really and truly was terrified of getting hurt romantically; I just think that the school, not being an exceptionally gay-friendly environment, gave him a fairly convenient excuse.

Now, dancing precariously close to frozen head turf, the two factors might also be related. If, say, at some point pre-appearance, he'd tried to turn a friendship into something more, and got burned by the guy being offended at his advances, for instance, it would both explain his reluctance to come out again, AND his trepidation about relationships in general (and particularly in the case of 'friends becoming romantic', since there's a definite risk there of one relationship against another).

Well, there was someone off-screen declaring that AIDS is Gods' punishment for gays, which is a fairly 'mainstream' thought among the anti-gay crowd. (Not looking up the strip, it was the one with Aggie reacting to several outrageous comments in rapid succession; also noteworthy as Cyndi's first appearance, IIRC.)

Whew, I actually remember that one now. Though the guys in question were speaking rather generally - I guess it would have helped if someone had given Sara crap before the rape video or well after it died down. Or if Daph had gotten some blowback once she stopped using Fred as a beard (...wait...) and starting dating Sara.

Well, technically, prior to the rape video, Sara wasn't out--yes, she was dressing like she was trying out for the lead role in The Joan Jett Story, but that alone isn't necessarily gonna make the penny drop, especially in the 'gaydumb' environment at Belleville. I can see where you're coming from in terms of the post-rape video environment, but the flipside is that following the Popsicle Wars, the school itself was far less of a feature in the strip--we concentrated far more on the core cast, not the potentially aggravating background characters. And, by that point, Sara was also 'shielded' to an extent, by the Peacie movement--not that the rest of the school necessarily gave a damn about them, but that there was enough "popularity power" in the Penny + Aggie + Stan + Duane circle that without a coordinated group, ala the Injustice Gang, an attack on any of them would've been a form of social suicide.

[Mung]

--though I'd be more inclined to blame society as the 'rapist' than the John, in that case--it's the economic structure that allows for people to be placed into that situation that creates the coercive factor.

Actually society is acting as the procurer/pimp forcing the woman into "the life".

[Freemage]

--though I'd be more inclined to blame society as the 'rapist' than the John, in that case--it's the economic structure that allows for people to be placed into that situation that creates the coercive factor.

Actually society is acting as the procurer/pimp forcing the woman into "the life".

Agreed. But if we're looking at 'survival prostitution as rape', then the rapist is the one who provided the coercion, not necessarily the one who performed the sex act itself. A John who doesn't realize that a woman is being forced, be it by economics or by a pimp who is trafficking her, to perform, is at least potentially blameless in her victimization. The one doing the victimizing is the one who put her in that position.