[8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Valerie » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:35 pm

Adrishiana wrote:Additionally, Lisa's own ability to whine about the pledge being violated in terms of "respect" is further eroded by the fact that she is literally screaming in Aggie's face.


She not good at conflict. I believe I've already mentioned that. From what I remember seeing, this is the only time Lisa has tried to stand her ground. Because of that, yes, she might be a little loud. And, especially since Aggie was just in her personal space about it two seconds ago, I think it's okay that Lisa exploded a little there.

I'm not really annoyed with Aggie for her part, though. Just, it's understandable that Lisa is feeling a little cornered and, especially since she's new at handling conflict with anything other than sarcasm and bad meme-based jokes, lashes out like that.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby maritza » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:36 pm

Btw, never mind me. This is me yelling at the television again :D
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Arky » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:39 pm

maritza wrote:And what he did to Brandi... humiliate her in front of the entire school for the sake of a dumb-ass election?

Stan is pure scum.


I never got from the strip that Stan humiliated Brandi in front of the entire school. If that was the intention, it was miswritten. I can believe that was the intention because it's consistent with Penny and Sara's reactions now but it didn't come across in what we saw or in how Stan and Brandi talked after the school debate.

I still agree with your view of Stan just because of what he did with Michelle (I always thought Brandi was a huge bitch to Michelle for not only shacking up with Stan but dragging him into the inner circle so Michelle had to put up with him just to be with her friends), but he never seemed to be dishonest with Brandi at all.


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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Adrishiana » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:41 pm

maritza wrote:Btw, never mind me. This is me yelling at the television again :D


For what it's worth, I don't think Stan is necessarily scum (although he definitely has a multitude of undesirable qualities), but I basically agree with you otherwise.


Valerie wrote:She not good at conflict. I believe I've already mentioned that. From what I remember seeing, this is the only time Lisa has tried to stand her ground. Because of that, yes, she might be a little loud. And, especially since Aggie was just in her personal space about it two seconds ago, I think it's okay that Lisa exploded a little there.

I'm not really annoyed with Aggie for her part, though. Just, it's understandable that Lisa is feeling a little cornered and, especially since she's new at handling conflict with anything other than sarcasm and bad meme-based jokes, lashes out like that.


Aggie was maintaining a reasonably respectful distance. Not quite the three feet of space (or so) that Americans tend to prefer, but they've already been established as a pretty touchy-feely group so that in itself probably isn't a serious issue.

As it is, Lisa's problem isn't with the fact that Aggie was in her personal space; it's with the fact that Lisa has decided that Aggie et. al. need to like Stan (to the extent that she apparently saw no issue into manipulating them into indebtedness to him, which really isn't cool no matter who dislikes who and how justified that is or isn't), and Aggie et. al. have ideas of their own on that matter that aren't falling in line with that.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Alice Macher » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:42 pm

FTR, we have seen Lisa stand up for herself to Aggie before, in "There Are No Rules":

"And yeah, I don't like your guys!"

"...exactly where and how have I been inconsiderate of your feelings?"

Whether you agree with her positions in those two strips or not, that's what she's doing.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Valerie » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:43 pm

maritza wrote:Btw, never mind me. This is me yelling at the television again :D


Nah, you make good points. I think the "month of wingmanning" thing was mostly a joke, but aside from that, Stan has shown that he's very concerned about his personal success to the point that he's (unintentionally*) hurt others in the process. YMMV on whether that is right or wrong. They're kids, they kinda still have to feel out the balance between "taking care of myself" and "being kind to others." Said the youngin'.

Go too far in one direction and it makes you kind of an asshole. Go too far in the other and you're just being plain impractical.

* I say "unintentionally" because he almost certainly didn't know exactly what Michelle was going through, diet-wise. He drew her away from one of her friends-- a friend that Stan seemed to think was a bad person anyway, so maybe he even thought he was doing Michelle a favor-- but I doubt he ever knew that she was self-destructive. Also, the Brandi thing, they did agree to keep it quiet, and maybe it was a simple misunderstanding about what exactly that meant. There's a difference between "don't tell anyone" and "don't wear it on your sleeve but it's cool if someone asks." It could just be that they didn't iron out the details enough.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Valerie » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:46 pm

Alice Macher wrote:FTR, we have seen Lisa stand up for herself to Aggie before, in "There Are No Rules":

"And yeah, I don't like your guys!"

"...exactly where and how have I been inconsiderate of your feelings?"

Whether you agree with her positions in those two strips or not, that's what she's doing.


Ah, thanks, I'd forgotten about that. Dude, and I just did an archive binge, ugh. That seems a little different to me, I think, but that might be just arguing opinions, so it may not be worth getting into.

Also, Alice, can I please have your archive-hunting abilities?
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Alice Macher » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:01 am

Valerie wrote:That seems a little different to me, I think, but that might be just arguing opinions, so it may not be worth getting into.


Fair enough. There's some room for interpretation there, sure. I'll also note, though, that in that earlier sequence, as in tonight's update, Lisa has cast aside her usual 4chan-speak and is talking plain English. When Lisa does that (as in her heart-to-heart talk with Jack...after the "U jelly?" bit, anyway), it's a sign she wants you not merely to show her attention, and maybe roll your eyes and go "Oh, Lis," but rather to listen to the content of what she's saying, because she's not joking now.

Also, Alice, can I please have your archive-hunting abilities?


D'aww, thanks. :oops: I'll see whether I can whip up a spell or something.

Nah, it comes with reading and rereading enough times (not necessarily full archive binges; I don't do those) that you just remember, within a range of a few strips, where everything is. My work on the story recaps for TV Tropes has also helped. (Now complete through "Suspicious Minds," so I'm getting there...)
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby JerrBear » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:13 am

I'm not getting the "My personal feelings are right so you should agree with me!" vibe. What I'm getting, here, is that Lisa thinks Stan being rejected is wrong and it's something she's decided to stand up for. Which, were she real, I'd agree with her. Stan's not total scum. Yea, he's done scummy things. But the guy has been shown to feel remorse as well as shown he has the will to do what's right in the end (Betraying Karen for an example). Besides, in the bigger picture he's far more better than Bob, Elmer, Cyndi, etc.

As far as past transgressions, maybe they should be learned from and move on. At least in this case.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Mec » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:00 am

NobodySpecial wrote:Actually, that's enough of an indictment. What the hell are you thinking, LIsa? Were Bob and Elmer no longer available?


Lisa tried to hook up with Bob and Elmer in a sleazy Internet chat room.

But she used so much leet-speak that they decided she was a porn-bot rather than a 17-year-old girl looking for NSA tonight.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby lokisdottir » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:06 am

JerrBear wrote:I'm not getting the "My personal feelings are right so you should agree with me!" vibe. What I'm getting, here, is that Lisa thinks Stan being rejected is wrong and it's something she's decided to stand up for. Which, were she real, I'd agree with her.


Disliking someone (as opposed to hurting them) isn't a right/wrong issue. P&A aren't doing any harm to Stan by depriving him of their company--he's hardly a social pariah without them, as we're talking class president, very popular, still a ladies' man most likely. As far as we've seen, P&A&friends haven't beel going around saying bad things about Stan outside of their social circle, much less spread malicious falsehood; they haven't vandalized his property, beat him up, or kidnapped him. All they did was decide they didn't want to be friends with him anymore and withdraw from him. That choice is fully theirs to make, so I don't see how they're in the wrong. It wouldn't be right if they'd pretended to be friends with Stan and strung him along while stabbing him in the back, but that wasn't it, either; P&A were up front and honest about disassociating from Stan, and it wasn't like they tried to police the friendships of anyone else in their circle, e.g. Jack is still friends with Stan.

Lisa on the other hand actually did do wrong, by lying to her friends and tricking them into owing Stan, hoping to manipulate them through gratitude. And as others have pointed out, the way it backfired is kind of hilarious. It turns out Stan isn't the doing-nice-for-nothing nice guy Lisa envisioned him to be after all.

Stan's not total scum. Yea, he's done scummy things. But the guy has been shown to feel remorse as well as shown he has the will to do what's right in the end (Betraying Karen for an example). Besides, in the bigger picture he's far more better than Bob, Elmer, Cyndi, etc.

As far as past transgressions, maybe they should be learned from and move on. At least in this case.


I personally think the baseline for acceptablity should be somewhat higher than "better than date rapists and psychos." And while I agree with you that Stan isn't irredeemable, it's the characters' choice who they choose to be friends with. Lisa can try to persuade them to accept Stan again, which is what she should have tried in the first place instead of trying to trick them into what she saw as "right."
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby dataweaver » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:25 am

Personally, I'm less interested in the moral dilemma of whether Stan deserves forgiveness or a nail gun than I am with the nature of Lisa's reaction. She told Jack that she and Stan are just "friends with benefits" (but put more crudely); but I'm wondering from this exchange if it turned into something more somewhere along the way.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby nymosy » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:25 am

shut up, lisa. you should have known better than to sleep with the guy that your friends hate and then get them indebted to him. i hope aggie loses it and shoves you off a staircase again.

also guys guys guys aggie didn't sleep with elmer (or bob i can't remember which) and then keep trying to drag him back to the circle so it is not at all comparable to the stan thing

if stan wanted friends maybe he shouldn't have been such an obnoxious little skeeze
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Freemage » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:45 am

dataweaver wrote:Personally, I'm less interested in the moral dilemma of whether Stan deserves forgiveness or a nail gun than I am with the nature of Lisa's reaction. She told Jack that she and Stan are just "friends with benefits" (but put more crudely); but I'm wondering from this exchange if it turned into something more somewhere along the way.

That was my first thought, too.

And as for Stan...

0: The Election. A lot of folks took this one to heart right away. I've seen very few people who hated Stan after the election storyline change their mind. And yet... it's a high school election, and unlike ninety-five percent of them, it was actually memorable. I've rarely encountered a student government that had any authority at all.

1: Michelle. He got caught in a trap on this one. I'm not surprised he didn't know how to handle it. And yes, his hatred for Penny was stupid and irrational, but it was also sincere. Whether his belief that Penny was a toxic hellbeast was true isn't important; he believed it, and so, yes, very likely DID believe that getting Michelle and Penny apart would be good for Michelle. Stupid and irrational, but not evil. And the only reason he didn't have a moment of grand redemption is that Penny decided to stop wallowing in self-pity an hour too soon. Hell, had she tackled her various concerns in a DIFFERENT ORDER, Stan would've shown up at Michelle's doorway first, been the one to actually see how bad she was, and insist to her father that she get help.

2: Cyndi. Um... what? No, seriously, those panels where people are claiming he was responsible for "helping" her are when he was TRYING to undermine her confidence and scare her off. Seriously, I just don't get any animosity towards him from that.

3: Brandi. This is probably the most damning--he screwed up. And Brandi is justifiably pissed about it, and he doesn't deserve her back. And I get Penny being mad about it--but her reaction comes across as uneven and slightly bizarre.

4: The Film. Since this got cited against him... Um, what? No, again, I see no reason to assume he was sitting there, all Machiavellian, trying to worm his way back into the girls' good graces. His FWB asked him for a favor. He asked for a favor in return, within the scope of the original favor, in fact. (That is, loaning quality equipment involved him with the film, making the request for credit both reasonable and plausible.) Now, I'm curious to find out how Lisa phrased the request--if she'd told HIM what she was up to, I suspect he would've either backed out, or decided to let it be a one-way favor (depending on how he felt about wanting senior year to be relatively drama-free).
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby adamiani » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:06 am

NobodySpecial wrote:
Alice Macher wrote:First panel... EYES OF DOOOOOOOOM...

And Sara's getting in on the righteous(??) indignation too, it seems.


Being absolutely fair, maybe the worst thing Stan has done is dumped two of their closest friends, at least one under false pretenses.


Two?
Last I checked Brandi dumped him, on some pretty arbitrary grounds that suggested that she didn't really value their relationship to begin with.
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