[8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby maritza » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:43 pm

Ah, people and their short memories.

Stan broke up with Michelle in such an specific way to blame her friendship with Penny for the whole thing. Michelle got away from Penny as a result. Thus, losing a big source of support and possibly leading to her eating disorder going so far.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby justvisiting » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:43 pm

Doc Harleen wrote:Anyway, I've always thought that Michelle's always been unfair about the Stan thing. Like NobodySpecial said, he just broke up with her. He didn't cause her issues or do anything Cyndi-like; he just couldn't give her the relationship she wanted.


Except he did throw in that little aside about not liking her friendship with Penny, which may or may not have contributed to her pulling away when she needed support most. It was still her choice to do so, and I don't know that it merits permanent blackballing (especially given how much he clearly regretted what followed), but it's not a point in his favor.

ETA: Um, in other words, what maritza said.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby EmptyHat » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:46 pm

I think that Lisa can be defended here for defending Stan. He really isn’t that bad and Sara and Penny don’t really have the most pure of motives for hating on him.

This comes right after Sara has dumped Daphne for the next best thing only to find that she can’t commit like she wanted to even though she wanted to.

So it isn’t unreasonable to say that Sara is as bad as Stan in that regard so maybe she is just seeing what she doesn’t like in herself and disliking Stan for it. Penny of course had those hot for Stan feelings back when he was trying to commit more to her friend.

However this goes though it is good to see Lisa actually giving a glimpse of something other than the surface.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Arky » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:48 pm

See, I don't like Stan and always felt he got off a bit scot-free by "changing sides" at the right time. His behaviour with Michelle was deplorable.

BUT.

Thing is, the gang at least accepted him for months afterwards. And I never felt he did anything wrong by Brandi at all. He didn't cheat on her and she never gave any sign she wanted their relationship to be public knowledge (quite the reverse), and SHE broke up with HIM, he didn't dump HER. Closing him out in solidarity with Brandi (the way Brandi never showed solidarity with Michelle, incidentally) is one thing, but this level of hatred goes beyond that. So it seems really weird to me that now Sara and Penny have this burning hatred for Stan which they showed no sign of before the Brandi break-up. They didn't even show signs of "we really really hate him but we're keeping a lid on it for Brandi's sake". See also the way Penny interacted with Stan when he was in her bedroom.

It just seems that the way they treat Stan is widly inconsistent, I guess is what I'm saying. If they hated him for his treatment for Michelle, we should have seen signs earlier. If they hate him for his treatment of Brandi, we should see what they think he did wrong by Brandi to justify this.
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Re: Satan's Lawyer

Postby snowmansam » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:48 pm

bunnyThor wrote:Soooo...

Just for the sake of argument, does anyone care to spell out what exactly it is that Stan did?

Whatever he did with Michelle was apparently tolerable for Brandi's sake. And if I remember correctly, Brandi dumped him.

So why all the Stan hate, really?


I think http://www.pennyandaggie.com/index.php?p=1046 sums it pretty well.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Adrishiana » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:48 pm

My feeling is that it's not necessarily WRONG for Lisa to be in a relationship of any kind with Stan (although I do certainly question her taste in men), but it's not wrong for the other girls to want nothing at all to do with him, either - both sets of feelings are equally valid.

Lisa's mistake is that she failed to remember that, yes, other people's feelings are valid too, and apparently set about trying to change their feelings via manipulation (although her original thought may well have been "problem, meet solution," and the manipulative angle came after she realized Stan wanted credit - although, personally, being acquainted with Stan's nature, I am kind of surprised she didn't occur to him that Stan would likely want something from Aggie and co. out of the deal).

Also, Brandi did dump Stan - after he threw her under the bus pretty much in front of the entire school (although I think only their immediate group of friends realized that it was Brandi being thrown under the bus).
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Adrishiana » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:52 pm

Except they did give him a second chance once he realized that Karen was bad news, which he squandered by doing exactly what Cyndi wanted him to do.

EmptyHat wrote:I think that Lisa can be defended here for defending Stan. He really isn’t that bad and Sara and Penny don’t really have the most pure of motives for hating on him.

This comes right after Sara has dumped Daphne for the next best thing only to find that she can’t commit like she wanted to even though she wanted to.

So it isn’t unreasonable to say that Sara is as bad as Stan in that regard so maybe she is just seeing what she doesn’t like in herself and disliking Stan for it. Penny of course had those hot for Stan feelings back when he was trying to commit more to her friend.

However this goes though it is good to see Lisa actually giving a glimpse of something other than the surface.


Except Sara didn't wholly dump Daphne for the next best thing, although she was certainly hoping for an eventual relationship with Lucy at the time. She dumped Daphne because Lucy made her realize that Daphne sucks, and she probably would have dumped her even if Lucy told her while they were actually in Hollywood that it would never go beyond friends.

Sara also didn't dump Daphne in a way that drove a wedge between Daphne and her/their other friends, nor after basically humiliating her in front of their classmates (while I disagree with Sara's choice of venue, the chances that any passerby were paying attention to them are pretty slim - much less an entire student body's worth of people).
Last edited by Adrishiana on Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby EmptyHat » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:53 pm



Do you mean that he might be following his own advice and playing the good guy for a bit? Or am I misreading you here?
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby maritza » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:56 pm

I beg to differ.

Stan maliciously threw that little bit about Penny while dumping Michelle. He didn't have any real reason to do so. It was to accomodate the request of Karen, and solely for the purpose of hurting Penny. Why did he want to hurt Penny? No reason.

Stan used to hate Penny... and guess what? Penny DID NOT do anything to either Stan or Rich. Anything. Her big crime was worrying about Rich breaking his skull. And Stan, in order to destroy Penny for her imaginary crimes against humanity, went so far as to teaming up with people that was pure evil. He condoned that vile youtube video against Sara, for example.

And what he did to Brandi... humiliate her in front of the entire school for the sake of a dumb-ass election?

Stan is pure scum.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby EmptyHat » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:01 pm

Adrishiana wrote: Except Sara didn't wholly dump Daphne for the next best thing, although she was certainly hoping for an eventual relationship with Lucy at the time. She dumped Daphne because Lucy made her realize that Daphne sucks, and she probably would have dumped her even if Lucy told her while they were actually in Hollywood that it would never go beyond friends.

Sara also didn't dump Daphne in a way that drove a wedge between Daphne and her/their other friends, nor after basically humiliating her in front of their classmates (while I disagree with Sara's choice of venue, the chances that any passerby were paying attention to them are pretty slim - much less an entire student body's worth of people).


Well I don’t really agree with you about Sara realising that Daphne sucked and then dumping her because of that. We could probably go back and forth all night on that though and get nowhere.

But saying that the way she broke up with Daphne didn’t drive a wedge kinda misses out on the fact that Daphne and Fred have broken off from our main group since then. Maybe they’re doing fine maybe not but they are gone.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby TolKooAD » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:07 pm

I don't really see the need for all the Stan hate. Yeah, he's been generally sleazy in his past, but they moved past that. So the Michelle thing, the conspiring with Karen thing (which I personally think he can be defended for), I don't consider that relevant here. Recently we've seen him breaking Brandi's heart (which led to his dumping) and if we left it at that I could see the rage at Lisa for being friendly towards him, even if I don't agree with it, but we didn't leave it at that, we saw Stan participating in the mirror project with obvious tension between him and the rest, but no outright rejection. They were all just guarded.

So I agree with everyone that's saying that the Stanhate is inconsistent. I wonder if the girls are being dramatic for its own sake; they aren't the most level-headed three characters in this comic.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Adrishiana » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:08 pm

EmptyHat wrote:
Adrishiana wrote: Except Sara didn't wholly dump Daphne for the next best thing, although she was certainly hoping for an eventual relationship with Lucy at the time. She dumped Daphne because Lucy made her realize that Daphne sucks, and she probably would have dumped her even if Lucy told her while they were actually in Hollywood that it would never go beyond friends.

Sara also didn't dump Daphne in a way that drove a wedge between Daphne and her/their other friends, nor after basically humiliating her in front of their classmates (while I disagree with Sara's choice of venue, the chances that any passerby were paying attention to them are pretty slim - much less an entire student body's worth of people).


Well I don’t really agree with you about Sara realising that Daphne sucked and then dumping her because of that. We could probably go back and forth all night on that though and get nowhere.

But saying that the way she broke up with Daphne didn’t drive a wedge kinda misses out on the fact that Daphne and Fred have broken off from our main group since then. Maybe they’re doing fine maybe not but they are gone.


Fred has actually been seen on-camera since then - the main reason we haven't seen much of Daphne, I suspect, is because we have seen Sara, and people who suck much less than Daphne often still find it difficult to be around their ex for a while after a breakup. So Daphne and Fred may well still be in contact with other members of the group, it probably just isn't being shown because that doesn't really advance the plot in any way.

Sara doing anything to Daphne along the lines of what Stan did to Michelle would basically require Sara to say that she was breaking up with Daphne because Daphne sucks and also she can't stand that Daphne is friends with Fred, with the additional knowledge that someone was plotting to do something to Daphne that included encouraging a possibly life-threatening condition that could be worsened by lack of support from/ability to trust close friends.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby brasca » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:22 pm

After some unbiased reflection there is a difference with Lisa's manipulation and Helen's. Lisa is coming clean now. She's not lying about it. She could. She could've told Stan that the video was awful (which seems to be the consensus opinion) and that he'd be better off not having his name attached, but I think she's weary of keeping her relationship a secret so she's admitting it right here. What happens next could very well validate Helen's cynicism in human nature. What will Aggie do next?
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby TolKooAD » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:23 pm

Another note... I hate how hypocritical Aggie is being here. She's totally willing to ride her high horse into the sunset and preach forgiveness and outreach when it comes to Bob/Elmer/whoever it was at that party, who I feel are much more destructive than Stan, but when Lisa actually goes and forgives and makes a point to be a friend to someone that's been an idiot, she gets in the hot seat.
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Re: [8/1/11]I...didn't want drama.

Postby Adrishiana » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:24 pm

TolKooAD wrote:Another note... I hate how hypocritical Aggie is being here. She's totally willing to ride her high horse into the sunset and preach forgiveness and outreach when it comes to Bob/Elmer/whoever it was at that party, who I feel are much more destructive than Stan, but when Lisa actually goes and forgives and makes a point to be a friend to someone that's been an idiot, she gets in the hot seat.


Aggie's problem is that Lisa lied to her.
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