On Lesbian Couples

[mindstalk]

My apologies, posted the wrong number. For men, it's seven women; for women, it's four men in their lifetimes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19374216/ns/health-sexual_health/t/new-survey-tells-how-much-sex-were-having/

More importantly, the article says the number is the median, and therefore the laws of logic and arithmetic are not outraged.

[TCampbell]

So I ended up seeing X-Men: First Class, and I'm reminded why I've disliked "issue-based" criticism since college. This tendency to view specific works through the lens of one particular issue is often unfair to both the issue and the work. And it tends to lead to gross oversimplification.

I mean, again, lots of things about Mystique's headsplodily convoluted history were jettisoned or altered in the name of a smooth, comprehensible character arc. But the irony is that the resulting story actually seems much more relevant to GLBT issues than the source material. As I said before, long-lasting or not, Mystique's lesbian relationship in the comics seemed to take up a pretty small percentage of her overall panel-time.

In the movies, she loves her childhood friend with a platonic bond and romantic curiosity, but resents that friend's ability to pass for "normal" with little effort. She builds a crush on one of her peers, which dies when they disagree about how much to assimilate into mainstream culture-- how much to hide. And finally, she chooses to be with someone who doesn't want to hide at all. Notice I stripped the genders out of this paragraph? I think these are familiar GLBT issues. The movie, like previous efforts from openly gay director-producer Bryan Singer, has some more pointed GLBT references which are hard to miss: "mutant and proud," "you never asked, so I never said." (Yeah, the first of those also works for "black and proud," and the race metaphors are another part of the tapestry.)

Yet for some readers... not necessarily those on this thread, but some readers out there... no Destiny will mean that X-Men: First Class isn't gay enough.

Now, why not a gay relationship between mutants in the movies? Wouldn't those metaphors still work? I think the point is to get people who never thought they might be gay, but fantasized as kids about having super-powers, to relate more personally to those issues than, as heterosexuals, they otherwise might. But that's just a guess.

[redwulf25_ci]

I think these are familiar GLBT issues. The movie, like previous efforts from openly gay director-producer Bryan Singer, has some more pointed GLBT references which are hard to miss: "mutant and proud," "you never asked, so I never said." (Yeah, the first of those also works for "black and proud," and the race metaphors are another part of the tapestry.)

And the ever popular "Have you tried not being a mutant?" or was that a different director?

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Again, the issue is dramatic license without dramatic payoff. Since First Class has all the passion of a lukewarm chicken noodle and the sensibility of an after-school special, the liberties taken with characters don''t work for me. This is in contrast to Thor, Hellboy II, Superman I-II, Iron Man and Nolan's Batman which at least made the relationships and conflicts somewhat credible through writing and performance. I'll gladly accept del Toro's invention of Liz/Hellboy on the basis of the writing, performance, and direction.

But "not gay enough" and viewing a movie through only one lens? I'm not even sure what those mean. Rewriting Mystique's sexuality is a relevant data point to the question Ele asked at the start of the thread. And it wouldn't be the first time Marvel rewrote a character as straight (as happened with Rawhide Kid and Xavin), and LGBT characters at Marvel have an ugly habit getting killed, maimed, or just slipping into production hell. It's certainly possible to use that lens, and other lenses as well. The fact that all four of the Marvel canon female characters were written atrociously is just the icing on a big pile of mediocre writing and direction.

ETA: Hell, I can ship the heck out of Miss Martian/Superboy and nod my head at yet another Ollie sidekick.

ETA2: And it didn't completely suck. Kevin Bacon in the most tastefully decorated submarine since Yellow Submarine and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was certainly a bonus.

[Ozaline]

So I ended up seeing X-Men: First Class, and I'm reminded why I've disliked "issue-based" criticism since college. This tendency to view specific works through the lens of one particular issue is often unfair to both the issue and the work. And it tends to lead to gross oversimplification.

I mean, again, lots of things about Mystique's headsplodily convoluted history were jettisoned or altered in the name of a smooth, comprehensible character arc. But the irony is that the resulting story actually seems much more relevant to GLBT issues than the source material. As I said before, long-lasting or not, Mystique's lesbian relationship in the comics seemed to take up a pretty small percentage of her overall panel-time.

In the movies, she loves her childhood friend with a platonic bond and romantic curiosity, but resents that friend's ability to pass for "normal" with little effort. She builds a crush on one of her peers, which dies when they disagree about how much to assimilate into mainstream culture-- how much to hide. And finally, she chooses to be with someone who doesn't want to hide at all. Notice I stripped the genders out of this paragraph? I think these are familiar GLBT issues. The movie, like previous efforts from openly gay director-producer Bryan Singer, has some more pointed GLBT references which are hard to miss: "mutant and proud," "you never asked, so I never said." (Yeah, the first of those also works for "black and proud," and the race metaphors are another part of the tapestry.)

Yet for some readers... not necessarily those on this thread, but some readers out there... no Destiny will mean that X-Men: First Class isn't gay enough.

Now, why not a gay relationship between mutants in the movies? Wouldn't those metaphors still work? I think the point is to get people who never thought they might be gay, but fantasized as kids about having super-powers, to relate more personally to those issues than, as heterosexuals, they otherwise might. But that's just a guess.

I agree and disagree.

I write a feminist blog and examine comics and comic movies through "a lens" where I'm looking at how much time women get in the film, and how it represents queer people etc... however I take metaphor into account and also talk about the film or comic on it's own merits and give it two scores... so I try not to narrow my vision too much.

I haven't seen first class yet, so no comment.

[NobodySpecial]

Now, why not a gay relationship between mutants in the movies? Wouldn't those metaphors still work? I think the point is to get people who never thought they might be gay, but fantasized as kids about having super-powers, to relate more personally to those issues than, as heterosexuals, they otherwise might. But that's just a guess.

“To see ourselves as others see us can be eye-opening. To see others as sharing a nature with ourselves is the merest decency. But it is from the far more difficult achievement of seeing ourselves amongst others…that the largeness of mind, without which objectivity is self-congratulation and tolerance a sham, comes.” - Clifford Geertz.

[Mr. Brightside]

...what.

Although this does shoot down "Origins: Mystique"... we begin at an opera in late 19th century Bohemia, in her days of impersonating an English PI...

[JerrBear]

A big part of me doesn't want to see X-Men: First Class. The main reason being I hated X-Men Origins: Wolverine. Just was a piss poor wankfest to me. However another part of me feels a certain amount of morbid curiosity aimed towards the film and demands I see it.

[TCampbell]

Since First Class has all the passion of a lukewarm chicken noodle and the sensibility of an after-school special...

To each their own! I thought it might have been the best X-film yet, if not for the acting. Don't get me wrong, the new guys are good, especially Fassbender! But they're not quite up to the standard of Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellen, Hugh Jackman and company.

Still, it tells a very clear, strong story of its two main characters finding the paths that will define their lives, interlaced with a twisty action plot, and seasoned with tons of the minority metaphors that have always fueled the series' strongest stories. And there's the scene where Xavier is in Magneto's head guiding him to his full potential, showing him how much more than rage he has, and Magneto is weeping, and you can actually hear a thousand slashfics being written.

I hated X-Men Origins: Wolverine.

Easily the worst of the lot. Singer's absence was keenly felt. He's not directing the new one, but he was involved as a writer and producer, and it definitely has more of the vibe of the early films.

P.S.: I could probably list about three things I liked and three things I didn't about the movie's Emma Frost, but I've fanboyed about this one enough already. It's not your fault that I'm picky about my favorites, January Jones! Thanks for not just standing there and looking pretty, like some Marvel actresses I could mention.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

And of course, Dr. Who "A Good Man Goes to War" gives us the fat and thin gay Anglican marines and the flirtatious man-eating Silurian and maidservant in one episode.



(ETA, the photo shows Madame Vastra and Jenny, not the fat and thin gay Anglican marines.)

[Mr_Rose]

Mme. Vastra: "I'm sorry dear, was I being insensitive again? ... I don't know why you put up with me..."
*knocks struggling guy out, from across the room, using her 6-ft long tongue*

Jenny: *significant look*

And suddenly The Internet ships them hard enough to re-float the Titanic.

[Lia S]

Wait, there were gay and lesbian couples in the Terminator movies? Damn I gotta watch those again I totally missed it.

I'm not sure how you would remember these programs from the bad ol' days, considering you can't be a day over 12.

Well, he said he missed them, not that he misses them.

[SuperFly]

I don't know why people get so darn worked up over the gay issue. I mean, it's sad that there aren't as many gay couples as there are straight ones. I don't like how they play gay dudes for humor. Not a fan of the Bury Your Gays phenomenon. I get that a lot of stuff has possibly intentional homosexual allegory tied into it. Most stories are heteronormative, and that says a lot about what the culture is.

At the same time, it also upsets me when people get their underpants in a bunch over this stuff. I don't like when people look for subtext that doesn't exist, or when they play up ANY relationships for fanservice. I get annoyed when fangirls write really terrible yaoi fics because Het is Eww.

Anyway, if it's part of the story, I'm fine with any safe, sane, and consensual pairings; but if it's for fanservice (which, unfortunately, a lot of ships of all sorts set sail for in the first place) I don't want to see it.

And y'all are ignoring the fact that Mystique is super-bisexual. She had a baby with Azazel. (For those of you who don't know, that red dude is Nightcrawler's daddy) She also was with Bobby Drake (Ice-Man), an alternate timeline's evil (Nazi) Kitty Pryde (Sprite/Ariel/Shadowcat), Victor Creed (Sabertooth), Forge (real name unknown), and Irene Adler (Destiny aka the blind chick). She's probably done even more people than that.

[Davidj]

And y'all are ignoring the fact that Mystique is super-bisexual. She had a baby with Azazel. (For those of you who don't know, that red dude is Nightcrawler's daddy) She also was with Bobby Drake (Ice-Man), an alternate timeline's evil (Nazi) Kitty Pryde (Sprite/Ariel/Shadowcat), Victor Creed (Sabertooth), Forge (real name unknown), and Irene Adler (Destiny aka the blind chick). She's probably done even more people than that.

Who would imagine that a shapeshifter could be a switch-hitter?

[yggdrasil]

And y'all are ignoring the fact that Mystique is super-bisexual. She had a baby with Azazel. (For those of you who don't know, that red dude is Nightcrawler's daddy) She also was with Bobby Drake (Ice-Man), an alternate timeline's evil (Nazi) Kitty Pryde (Sprite/Ariel/Shadowcat), Victor Creed (Sabertooth), Forge (real name unknown), and Irene Adler (Destiny aka the blind chick). She's probably done even more people than that.

If you include the parallel universes, the animated versions and the movies, I think Mystique has been with half of the Marvel universe.