On Lesbian Couples

[Ele]

Please forgive me my rant. If you don’t like it, disagree with it or just plain don’t care, I understand and I’ll take no offense if you tell me to shut it.

I’ve a bone to pick with the entertainment industry when it comes to lesbian couples. In television, movies, comics (both web and paper) and novels, they’re repeatedly treated in a frustrating manner. When two females get together in any of these mediums, nine times out of ten it’s done entirely in the name of fan service. They lock lips, the wolf whistles from the (mostly male) audience commence, and they possibly engage in a brief fling (or the “relationship” ends immediately following the kiss). The reason for this is often simply to get a reaction out of the audience. The women will then realize that what they REALLY want is a good man and will drift into hetero relationships so that they can get married, have a house with a picket fence, shoot out 2.5 kids, and live happily ever after.

Why? Is it because people genuinely believe that two women do not form lasting relationships? They seem to accept that two men can do so, but two men typically aren’t put together in the interest of fan service. Why are women nearly always moved back into hetero relationships following their inevitable breakup? There are exceptions, of course, but the exceptions typically come in the form of stories that are built around the idea of a lesbian couple. Webcomics like Simply Sarah or movies like Bound are about the couple, so it wouldn’t make sense to break them up. For those stories where the lesbian relationship isn’t the focal point, lesbian relationships have a survival rate similar to that of a Spinal Tap drummer. The woman are nearly all straight or “bi-curious” (which in the entertainment industry translates as: just needs a good man). Why is this? Is it because the majority of writers are male and this is the way they want to see women? Or is it a reflection of society's views in general. Why is the idea of a lasting relationship between gay males generally accepted (though often played for comedy in the industry), but a lasting relationship between two women appears to be viewed as nigh-impossible?

I’m genuinely curious what people think about all of this. It’s not meant as a dig at T and the relationship between P&A, but there are a boatload of intelligent people on here who could probably offer some insights or counterpoints. Thanks for your time and sorry if I’ve managed to offend folks once again.

[Mr. Brightside]

Well... they're in high school. It's entirely possible one or both of them will end up with a woman in the end, but they're probably not going to end up with one another. T may or may not have broken them up by the end of the strip, but it would be a horrid anticlimax to put either of them in a relationship with a man before the end, and after that it's the purview of fanfic and cameos. (Certainly Sara won't wind up with a man, or Daphne.)

I think part of it is that "experimentation" between women is more accepted, so stories about straight/bicurious women partnering are more accepted by the audience than straight/bicurious men partnering with men, and that it's less open-season to make jokes about lesbians, so a lot of the reason to put in a stable lesbian couple is lost. As you've said yourself, when it's about the couple, they stay together, and when it's not about the couple, it's really about women meant to be seen as straight, at least in the sense of "conforming"; likewise, as you said, when a gay male couple is ancillary, they're usually played for jokes that really don't work with lesbians. Sometimes lesbian couples are used for stereotypical jokes, but those couples usually stay together, even if they don't get much screen time.

Essentially, the way I see it (through my bitter lens) is that it's the loss of comic gay stereotypes and the introduction of "normalized" female/female experimentation. I know that sounds like a horrible, self-excusing way to see it, but it's the fastest explanation to come to me.

[Ele]

I really wasn't targeting P&A (much as I'd absolutely love the girls to stay together, I've pretty well accepted that's unlikely at best), but you do raise an interesting point. I've heard a lot of people say that two characters of course aren't going to stay together since they're only in highschool. Is it that uncommon for two people to stay together post-highschool? My wife's parents were highschool sweethearts. My aunt and uncle were highschool sweethearts. Heck, Rob and Lynda were highschool sweethearts. Do you think it's simply a generational thing now? People from Penny and Aggie's generation don't get married after highschool?

[Valerie]

Yeah, it's pretty much true that a couple consisting of gay men is funny, while a couple consisting of gay women is... not.
Well, not that it can't be made funny, but it's seen as much more insensitive to play on the stereotypes of lesbians. (For some reason.)

I think things are getting better, though. I mean, we're always moving forward, of course, it just takes enough people like us who want to see a gay relationship work out before the writers realize that's what's going to get them ratings/views.

I'm actually pretty tired of seeing a gay couple of either gender being played for laughs, as homosexuality isn't funny. Not any funnier than heterosexuality, at least. Yes, people in relationships can have interesting connections and funny misunderstandings and such that lead to comedy, but does it all have to be comic relief? Give me some gay characters that are basically indistinguishable from straight characters-- yes, a lot of gay men are feminine, and yes, a lot of gay women are all about gender equality. But does it have to be their entire character? Can we have a gay man that likes going hunting or a gay woman that likes cooking? I don't care if he looks "fabulous" while doing it or if she's wearing a flannel shirt while cracking eggs, just stop putting people in these little corners that say all gay people must be "this."

Women (of the straight variety) are finally getting some more serious, well-rounded characters that don't rely on stereotypes. Y'know, like, what, almost a century after earning the right to vote? Are we going to have to wait until a century after gays are allowed to get married in the U.S. for some believable characters?

[showler]

The main issue, of what you describe, is that it is often used as a "stunt" for ratings. Lesbian scenes get ratings during advertising sweeps.

Therefore, the problem is that the relationship is never meant to last, so when the ratings period is over they go back to their originally intended storyline.

Thankfully, this is becoming a little less common. There are more and more shows where the relationships are treated as real and important.

[adamiani]

I really wasn't targeting P&A (much as I'd absolutely love the girls to stay together, I've pretty well accepted that's unlikely at best), but you do raise an interesting point. I've heard a lot of people say that two characters of course aren't going to stay together since they're only in highschool. Is it that uncommon for two people to stay together post-highschool? My wife's parents were highschool sweethearts. My aunt and uncle were highschool sweethearts. Heck, Rob and Lynda were highschool sweethearts. Do you think it's simply a generational thing now? People from Penny and Aggie's generation don't get married after highschool?

Not right after high-school, no.

In 1950 or 1960, the average age of a girl getting married for the first time was 20.3; even in 1970, it was 20.8. Today it's 26.1. Average age for guys has been about 2-3 years older.

If half of girls are are married within 2-3 years of HS graduation, logically, a good number of marriages were to high-school sweethearts. Now that half of girls aren't getting hitched for 8 years after High School (10 for guys), that's less common-- and getting married right after High School would seem to be highly unusual, even irresponsible behavior.

[brite85]

Today it's 26.1. .

Phew. That makes me feel better!

Anyways, I like that the Wire has a really cute, but not at all fanservice representation of a lesbian couple.

I like all the P&A fanservice couples as well!

[Freemage]

Keep in mind, there's a strong heteronormative effect in play. Even a slight demographic imbalance produces a strong effect in media where writers cater to their audience--a 70/30 split in the audience will push media targeting that audience to a 90/10 split, easily. (See also, men/women and superhero comics). The entire non-straight alphabet soup is generally estimated to account for about 20% of the population, at most. So by and large, mass media goes for the 80% segment of the demographic (and note, even among the 20%, you have a considerable number of bi and questioning--who will likely still be satisfied by a "girl tries girl, likes it, but ends up with a guy" storyline as well).

Having an established character come out, and stay on the far side of the line is difficult to justify to your ratings guy. There just seems to be no percentage in it.

Another factor comes in when you're talking about media that are written week-to-week, or at best season-to-season. FREX: I was never a big Ellen fan. Her show seemed fine in kind of a Lucille Ball way, but I'd already seen a lot of Lucy, so didn't make a whole lot of effort to follow it. The one episode I did see, and remember, featured Ellen lusting madly over a firefighter character who came in briefly (I think he was offering CPR lessons). It was light, and mildly amusing--unless you viewed it in retrospect, after Ellen (the character) came out as a lesbian. That episode jumped immediately from "farcical comedy" to "painful personal tragedy" once it was established that the character had no interest in men whatsoever.

So you can't just have existing characters, who have been involved in straight relationships, come out of the closet as gay without repercussions and retconning lots of your show's history. Easier to make them bi, instead--which means it's always tempting to switch back and go for that 80% market share.

[mindstalk]

When I looked at OkCupid ads by region, typical numbers were like 6% of males gay, 3% bi; 12% of females bi, 2% gay.

My media selection isn't mainstream but I don't think I've seen the pattern alleged in the OP at all. *shrug* If anything, we had Buffy's Willow going from male crush/lust and healthy male relationship to "gay now", with not a mention of bisexuality. "Bisexual erasure" seems a common complaint.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Meanwhile over in mainstream comics land, Marvel just erased one of their few acknowledged long-term lesbian relationships for the sake of giving Magneto a girlfriend.

ETA: comics MEDIA land, yes, I know movie and comic continuity are different, yadda, yadda, yadda....

[CBrachyrhynchos]

So you can't just have existing characters, who have been involved in straight relationships, come out of the closet as gay without repercussions and retconning lots of your show's history. Easier to make them bi, instead--which means it's always tempting to switch back and go for that 80% market share.

Because gay people never have straight relationships?

[showler]

Meanwhile over in mainstream comics land, Marvel just erased one of their few acknowledged long-term lesbian relationships for the sake of giving Magneto a girlfriend.

Who was this?

[Valerie]

So you can't just have existing characters, who have been involved in straight relationships, come out of the closet as gay without repercussions and retconning lots of your show's history. Easier to make them bi, instead--which means it's always tempting to switch back and go for that 80% market share.

Because gay people never have straight relationships?

That's what I was thinking. A lot of gay people assume that they're straight or try to be straight until they figure things out/accept it, so it's not uncommon for someone who has dated the opposite sex to "switch."

[Ollie]

Meanwhile over in mainstream comics land, Marvel just erased one of their few acknowledged long-term lesbian relationships for the sake of giving Magneto a girlfriend.

and they erased the only significant disabled character and made her able-bodied again for a new reboot.

[Papuasblya]

Anyways, I like that the Wire has a really cute, but not at all fanservice representation of a lesbian couple.

Snoop had a girlfriend?