[3-18-11] I know that's unfair

[RD]

You know, I probably would have initially suspected Penny and Sara because:
1: False reports are very rare.
2: There's no magic rapist profile to exclude them.

When you hear hoofbeats think of horses and not zebras. We as readers know Charlotte was a zebra because we have the benefit of multiple perspectives and character development of all the principles involved. But from a limited perspective I'm not convinced that it so terrible to give Charlotte the benefit of the doubt until more information was uncovered. When confronted with evidence that Charlotte was a zebra rather than a horse, Daphne took responsibility for her mistake and apologized.

Concern about not "convicting" Penny and Sara is misplaced because they're not on a jury. It is entirely reasonable to cut a person out of your social circle on the accusation of a sex crime, and I've done so on multiple occasions.

Lesbian rape is also very rare. Charlotte was already a zebra. Add in that most of the cast knew her to be unstable, and specifically to have a history of trying to set people up for serious crimes...

Trigger Warning: homophobic & transphobic language

First, I don't want to call it "lesbian" rape. Straight women are capable of raping other women, straight men are capable of raping other men, orientation does not always play into that. Sometimes, (particularly with straight men raping men?) if anything, it's done when finding out the person is gay/bi or trans as punishment because "you like that, don't you, you freak, that's all freaks like you are good for".

Now, it is very rare, but are the rates of false accusations significantly higher in woman-raping-woman cases? Because that's the point CBrach is making here, false reports are very rare. Not "rape is so common!", although later posts do say that, but "false reports are very rare". And the effects of not believing a genuine accusation of rape, and I don't just mean when taking it to court we aren't talking about that, are horrific for the victim.

Ideally the people who know Sara would've confronted her about it seriously. Not storming off in tears, refusing to think she might be innocent, but "Look, you were accused of this- and while I don't want to believe it's true, and the source is way less than credible, but it's a serious accusation and I don't want to just write it off. What's your side?". Because this sort of thing should be treated as serious even if it's by someone you hate because rape sucks and it's way too often dismissed without any evidence that it didn't happen with "[alleged rapist] is cooler than you so STFU". (I'm pretty sure Penny was only referenced as her girlfriend and justification because "we own the school", not accused of doing it herself)

Also, ideally someone who Charlotte didn't hate (so... maybe Fred or Duane at that point?) could talk to her gently to get her side as well. Considering who Charlotte is, I don't think anyone would expect her to be an awesome actor so if directly asked "Did Sara really do that to you?" (again, gently, no matter how much you want to believe Sara and dislike Charlotte just remember how horrible it is for real rape victims who aren't believed) it'd be obvious if she was lying or not. It might even make it clear that she was being abused, so while Sara didn't do that to her, someone did and, given Aggie, maybe they could've done something about it sooner.

[showler]

Two quick things: First, regardless of how rare false rape accusations may be, a friend is under no obligation to believe an accusation from a person they know is probably crazy over a friend. Police, school authorities and other people in charge have that obligation...friends are allowed to use their brains.

Second, any rape accusation that is accompanied by a POSTER CAMPAIGN is probably fake.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Two quick things: First, regardless of how rare false rape accusations may be, a friend is under no obligation to believe an accusation from a person they know is probably crazy over a friend. Police, school authorities and other people in charge have that obligation...friends are allowed to use their brains.

Second, any rape accusation that is accompanied by a POSTER CAMPAIGN is probably fake.

We know that Charlotte is crazy because we've been given the benefit of multiple perspectives. But most characters in the strip didn't. Balance this with the fact that reporting sexual assault opens the survivor up to a truckload of shit, even where the reports are reasonably credible, and especially when the accused is a high-status person.

I'm not convinced that jumping to the wrong conclusion in the face of a shocking accusation is a terrible and horrible thing. To me, it's a very human thing to do, and Daphne's ability to admit that she was wrong demonstrates a high degree of maturity.

[RD]

Two quick things: First, regardless of how rare false rape accusations may be, a friend is under no obligation to believe an accusation from a person they know is probably crazy over a friend. Police, school authorities and other people in charge have that obligation...friends are allowed to use their brains.

Look at who her friends are, though. Penny? Definitely wouldn't give it a second thought, that's her personality, for better or worse she was fine with making sure that her friend got off scot-free despite seeing her commit a violent act (with provocation, and Xena suffered no long-term damage, but we don't know that Penny would've been swayed had Xena ended up in a coma). Whether or not you think this is okay is another story, but that is her character.

Aggie? You really expect that Aggie would be totally fine with letting a rape accusation slide without even looking into it? Because she didn't. She made sure that Sara had an alibi. Now, after that, she's under no obligation to find out Charlotte's side. But if she couldn't find out that Sara had an alibi and it was "she says, she says", it would be incredibly out of character for her to not try and get both sides.

Notice that I'm not saying they have to condemn Sara, but as decent human beings they should at least ask her.

We know that Charlotte is crazy because we've been given the benefit of multiple perspectives. But most characters in the strip didn't. Balance this with the fact that reporting sexual assault opens the survivor up to a truckload of shit, even where the reports are reasonably credible, and especially when the accused is a high-status person.

I'm not convinced that jumping to the wrong conclusion in the face of a shocking accusation is a terrible and horrible thing. To me, it's a very human thing to do, and Daphne's ability to admit that she was wrong demonstrates a high degree of maturity.

It also doesn't fit the M-O of the KA thing. With that, she tried her best to make sure that she couldn't be associated with it, including matching KA's handwriting. She didn't submit a report that she'd heard/seen KA putting bombs in the question mark boxes, she tried to make it look like KA was admitting to it herself. This didn't really disguise the video very well. Anyone who knew who Charlotte was would be able to guess. She was opening herself up to crap in a way that she hadn't when implicating KA.

[showler]

I'm not convinced that jumping to the wrong conclusion in the face of a shocking accusation is a terrible and horrible thing. To me, it's a very human thing to do, and Daphne's ability to admit that she was wrong demonstrates a high degree of maturity.

I don't think she jumped to the wrong conclusion in the face of a shocking accusation. This comic (http://www.pennyandaggie.com/index.php?p=720) and the intervention itself sound to me like she chose to believe the accusation because it supported her "theory" that Sara must be a terrible person for not receiving her signals. And there was no maturity in admitting you're wrong when there is no other choice in the world. Especially since her concern was about herself not about Charlotte in the first place.

Nothing in that whole sequence, including Daphne's apology makes me think Daphne is a mature and good person.

I can definitely see how that would continue to sit in the back of Sara's mind until it eventually became a problem she had to face up to.

You really expect that Aggie would be totally fine with letting a rape accusation slide without even looking into it? Because she didn't. She made sure that Sara had an alibi.

She did confirm that Sara had an alibi. In order to prove to others that Sara was telling the truth. This was how she reacted the day the "news" came out in the school: http://www.pennyandaggie.com/index.php?p=726

There is nothing conditional about her support for Sara based entirely on knowing Sara and knowing Charlotte.

And during the intervention it was confirmed that Daphne had been warned that Charlotte was untrustworthy.

[Adrishiana]

Notice that I'm not saying they have to condemn Sara, but as decent human beings they should at least ask her.

Ask, absolutely, but Daphne didn't bother with something as pedestrian and sensible as asking. Daphne told. Because... Sara hadn't received her signals and didn't jump into bed with her right away. And then stomped off in tears when Sara (rightfully) protested her innocence.

It also doesn't fit the M-O of the KA thing. With that, she tried her best to make sure that she couldn't be associated with it, including matching KA's handwriting. She didn't submit a report that she'd heard/seen KA putting bombs in the question mark boxes, she tried to make it look like KA was admitting to it herself. This didn't really disguise the video very well. Anyone who knew who Charlotte was would be able to guess. She was opening herself up to crap in a way that she hadn't when implicating KA.

They did make some attempt to disguise Charlotte's identity, though. Whether they were doing it in order to make it look more "official" or whether they were ACTUALLY attempting to disguise Charlotte's identity and simply didn't go far enough is a matter of debate, but the attempt was made.

I don't think she jumped to the wrong conclusion in the face of a shocking accusation. This comic (http://www.pennyandaggie.com/index.php?p=720) and the intervention itself sound to me like she chose to believe the accusation because it supported her "theory" that Sara must be a terrible person for not receiving her signals. And there was no maturity in admitting you're wrong when there is no other choice in the world. Especially since her concern was about herself not about Charlotte in the first place.

Nothing in that whole sequence, including Daphne's apology makes me think Daphne is a mature and good person.

To add to this, Daphne apologized only after the rest of their friends pointed out she was an idiot (and a malicious one at that). She started up with the accusing again the moment she laid eyes on Sara at Aggie's house.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

And there was no maturity in admitting you're wrong when there is no other choice in the world.

Sure there is, people stand their ground over stupid claims that have no support all the time. We see it here in these forums.

Nothing in that whole sequence, including Daphne's apology makes me think Daphne is a mature and good person.

What should a person do when confronted with evidence that he or she is wrong? Not apologize? Not take responsibility? Not change his or her behavior? Blame everything on a third party?

The problem here is that everyone in the comic has made at least one ugly mistake. Personally, it doesn't get uglier than setting up someone for a smear campaign (Penny), trying to pity-seduce a guy from his SO (Aggie), or using religion to justify kidnapping and torture (Charlotte). But that's just me.

To add to this, Daphne apologized only after the rest of their friends pointed out she was an idiot (and a malicious one at that).

This doesn't make a lick of sense. Daphne is a bad person because she apologized and changed her behavior when confronted about her problem? How does that work?

[CBrachyrhynchos]

And then stomped off in tears when Sara (rightfully) protested her innocence.

Yes, because people who are caught doing something bad always tell the truth, especially when they're treating the accusation as a joke.

[showler]

This doesn't make a lick of sense. Daphne is a bad person because she apologized and changed her behaviour when confronted about her problem? How does that work?

Okay, here's the problem I have: Although Daphne apologized when faced with overwhelming opposition and when she really had no other choice I can accept the idea that her apology was genuine and that she tried to change.

I cannot accept the idea that there is any evidence in the comic that she was completely successful in changing and that therefore any problems after that moment are entirely the result of Sara's personal issues.

Daphne screwed up to a massive degree and due to a very large ego/self-importance issue. She said she'd try and change. A year later Sara still thinks she has paranoia and anger issues. That leads me to believe that her change was not entirely successful. Maybe it's still a work in progress. Probably Sara's resentment over the original accusation is still influencing her thoughts. Maybe Lucy does have some effect on this.

But Daphne is not blameless in this break-up.

And her responses in the last comic show she still hasn't changed completely. Apparently she hasn't changed enough either.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

This doesn't make a lick of sense. Daphne is a bad person because she apologized and changed her behaviour when confronted about her problem? How does that work?

Okay, here's the problem I have: Although Daphne apologized when faced with overwhelming opposition and when she really had no other choice I can accept the idea that her apology was genuine and that she tried to change.

Helen made a different choice.

I cannot accept the idea that there is any evidence in the comic that she was completely successful in changing and that therefore any problems after that moment are entirely the result of Sara's personal issues.

Sure, change takes time. And sure, it's not entirely on Sara but it's not entirely on Daphne either.

[sentora]

It wasn't as simple as "Oh she's a lesbian." with Duane. Not only was he still smarting from the breakup, but to see something that implied you were possibly being led on or that you wasn't man enough to satisfy your girlfriend so she's getting a woman who could, plus a lot of other self doubts about himself and injured pride. In a way, you could consider that Duane's feelings were similar to Daphne's but he handled them in a less assholish way than she did. Doesn't change that like I said, they were dangerous assumptions with one carrying more weight than the other.

Yeah, it was pretty much as simple as "oh, she's a lesbian." Duane calmly asked Penny - and while his feelings may have been involved, they didn't cloud his intellect for too long. She quickly disabused him of the notion and he apparently decided she was telling him the truth. Beyond that, Duane didn't tell the entire school that Penny is a lesbian (and nor did Daphne tell the entire school that Sara is a rapist), so how equal the weight of the accusations and how dangerous the two labels thing doesn't really hold up here. It really comes down to what they were willing to believe about the other person - Duane thought it wasn't entirely out of bounds that Penny is a lesbian because the two didn't really spark; Daphne was completely willing to believe Sara is a rapist because a relationship of the sort she wanted wasn't happening on the timeline she wanted it to.

From a guy's perspective, it's not as simple. Remember that his masculinity was also injured on the matter, and we may even see the matter rear it's head again when Penny announces she's Aggiesexual. We've already seen that he's still a little sore on the subject at the party.

And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the subject of labels and their danger levels, since my personal experiences may be influencing my train of thought on both scenarios. I still think Daphne's paid her dues for that incident, and Sara's just hiding behind it.